Shamsy Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Hello everyone A pleasure to meet a dedicated team of historians and collectors. I joined this forum as I am relatively new to collecting trench clubs and saw that there were a few posts made regarding them. In short I've been collecting Japanese militaria for a long time, but recently got a little off track... and now I am trying to learn about trench clubs. I'm hoping that the knowledgable people here may be willing to assist me. I understrand it is very difficult to tell the unofficial or 'home made' clubs from fakes people cobble together. Sadly this seems to be coming true for all areas of militaria... But I digress. I've purchased a copy of 'At Arms Length Trench Knives and Clubs' which I eagerly await. However, until that arrives, would it be possible to get some opinions and information on a trench flail (that is being labled a trench club) selling on eBay. I saw the post on asking about whether or not an item is genuine. I'm not asking that, I'd like simply the nationality and an approximate dating for construction between 1900 and 2014. The item in question is http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181300616583?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Thank you in advance for any assistance rendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Hmmm I'm no expert, but it looks like a film prop from Lord of The Rings... Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Not a very practical device I would say as the chain links are not welded, but there were some odd things produced by the Home Guard in it's early days. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Looks like the chain is too long to me - the user would be constantly having their fingers mashed. Even appears to be damage on the shaft exactly where one would hold it! I'd say it's not too practical for actual fighting and could well be a stage prop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Greetings Shamsy, This is a very common tourist or medieval decorator style of mace that comes up all too frequently on eBay and erroneously advertised as of WW1 origin. They “supposedly” come from Spain as souvenirs/deco items. They come with various wooden handles fitted as well. As has already been mentioned, the chain is too long (after you hit a target it would probably bounce back and wound you as well). Nor is its construction up to the rigors of actual use (it appears very flimsy). I like that people buy these, because it means they have less money available when a real one comes to market… so feel free to purchase it…it’s such a great deal Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 January , 2014 Share Posted 16 January , 2014 Generally known as a 'flail' a middle ages weapon derived from an agricultural implement, used by foot soldiers and a shorter lighter weapon used by mounted (Knights). Very unlikely to be used in the great war as it was an indirect striking weapon using its own kinetic energy as either a striking weapon or a weapon to entangle the opponents blade. Great War clubs are more related to the 'mace' a direct striking weapon, easily manufactured and simple to use. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted 17 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2014 Thank you all for your attention and assistance. This is a very common tourist or medieval decorator style of mace that comes up all too frequently on eBay and erroneously advertised as of WW1 origin. I like that people buy these, because it means they have less money available when a real one comes to market… so feel free to purchase it…it’s such a great deal That pretty much sums it up. I have my dating and nationality and they do not fit my collection theme Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 17 January , 2014 Share Posted 17 January , 2014 I would imagine the reason people would buy it is that if you remove the bog chain, you have a nice lump that you could drill out, insert a length of wood and pass it off as a trench club. Personally after many years of trawling through British and European militaria fairs and markets I wouldn't buy any item advertised as a trench club, trench knife, or knuckleduster. Especially if it was military marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted 19 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2014 I wouldn't buy any item advertised as a trench club, trench knife, or knuckleduster. Especially if it was military marked. A little cynical but sadly that holds a good degree of truth. I've noticed that China have just released a new range of imitation Jap NCO copper handled swords. Much better than their original trash, but still trash. Only a few small details wrong with them. Luckily I am confident that everything I have is 'real', but if I ever chose to sell in the next few years (and since this is my great love in life I don't think so), I'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the collection was real. There is one telling thing that is a good indicator of 'genuine' and hard to fake. Not sure if I should say in case the fraudsters are reading... but smell. That musty military smell. If you have any genuine articles, you'll know what I mean. It's unique. One of the clubs I bought, after careful examination looks to be genuinly old and has that military musk. Good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 January , 2014 Share Posted 19 January , 2014 Shamsy, yes I am cynical, there were companies selling these items 35 years ago alongside the 're-strike' badges and Nazi regalia and have gained a patina of age that makes them acceptable. There were a lot of trench clubs that were made in a railway workshop in Stratford, the design taken from a picture of an original. I saw those being offered at the Angel in the mid 80's for a tenner each and no way could you tell they weren't the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted 21 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2014 It is such a shame that there are a lot of questionable and outright fraudulent items claimed as 'real'. But anything that is worth something gets copied, a great shame. For the avid collector and historian, I imagine it is devastating to realise something you paid your hard earned pocket money for has absolutely no relevance or value to you. I appreciate the advice Auchon, especially as I am new to the trench club scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 If I was going to start collecting something, I suspect it wouldn't be trench clubs, as there seem to be so many iffy ones about. Discussion always seems to focus on authenticity, rather than on the production and use of these things. Personally, if I was going to select a weapon for close-quarters attack/defence on outgoing trench raids and against incoming ones, I think I would rather have a hatchet akin to a tomahawk .... not least because it would probably have other uses between raids. Why were trench clubs apparently preferred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest exuser1 Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 Shamsy, yes I am cynical, there were companies selling these items 35 years ago alongside the 're-strike' badges and Nazi regalia and have gained a patina of age that makes them acceptable. There were a lot of trench clubs that were made in a railway workshop in Stratford, the design taken from a picture of an original. I saw those being offered at the Angel in the mid 80's for a tenner each and no way could you tell they weren't the real deal.For a while i worked in a militria estableshment in Torrens St by the Angel ,and recall those clubs ,as well as the shrapnel vests that were being produced,and the date stamps for tunics and various other items ,faking is nothing new with militria from so called Agincourt relics that the British museum have in their Black collection, previous to the clubs,there were the infamous Confedrate Marine infantry buckles made in Islington in the early1970s story being they were orderd by the Confedracy but never deliverd as the war came to a end and they were stored in a basement until uncoverd in the 1970s ! laugh and there still doing the rounds and they do look good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 I have a 'trench' club that is genuine, it is all steel, about 18/20" in length and 1" diameter with the business end turned into a crude flair or flange, the hand end is drilled through about 1/4" hole with an old and dirty cord wrist loop.. I spotted it on a shelf at an antique mall where it was described as a security guard nightstick. I knew at a glance that that was not the case as the weight and dimensions would be lethal. The other oddity was that the steel is blued similar to a quality gun blue. It wouldn't surprise me if it had been made from a gun part as the business end gives the appearance of being plugged. I believe it to be German as I have seen a very similar one in a book that is so described. Why do I think it genuine? because it is high quality steel, useless as a civilian self defense item, very difficult to work and drill and sold for about $12. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 I have a 'trench' club that is genuine, it is all steel, about 18/20" in length and 1" diameter with the business end turned into a crude flair or flange, the hand end is drilled through about 1/4" hole with an old and dirty cord wrist loop.. I spotted it on a shelf at an antique mall where it was described as a security guard nightstick. I knew at a glance that that was not the case as the weight and dimensions would be lethal. The other oddity was that the steel is blued similar to a quality gun blue. It wouldn't surprise me if it had been made from a gun part as the business end gives the appearance of being plugged. I believe it to be German as I have seen a very similar one in a book that is so described. Why do I think it genuine? because it is high quality steel, useless as a civilian self defense item, very difficult to work and drill and sold for about $12. khaki Greetings Khaki, Your Trench Club sounds very interesting. Any chance you would post a picture of it for us to see? Below are some of mine. Many apologies for the watermarks on my picture. But, my pictures keep showing up on eBay and elsewhere, so I have become draconian about ensuring there's no doubt as to their origin. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 Nice display of clubs, very impressive, I will try to get you an image if I can, as I haven't had much success using my cell phone camera, although I have posted two or three images it usually takes many attempts over an hour or so each time with the biggest problem being reducing the image size. I will see what I can do. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 21 January , 2014 Share Posted 21 January , 2014 Nice display of clubs, very impressive, I will try to get you an image if I can, as I haven't had much success using my cell phone camera, although I have posted two or three images it usually takes many attempts over an hour or so each time with the biggest problem being reducing the image size. I will see what I can do. khaki I have found taking a picture (.jpeg) and dropping it into a blank MS PowerPoint presentation and then saving it using "Save picture" option onto my desktop; usually drops the original .jpeg's resolution enough. When it doesn't drop it low enough, I just shrink the size of the picture as it appears in the PowerPoint presentation and repeat saving it again. I'm sure there are easier apps/programs available, but this works nicely for me and doesn't cost me a thing because I already own the PowerPoint software. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted 23 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2014 Your Trench Club sounds very interesting. Any chance you would post a picture of it for us to see? Below are some of mine. A very nice collection right there! I've received my copy of At Arms Length and have been reading fixatedly about the various 'official' patterns. I only have two clubs myself and both are the 'DIY' variety. I'm almost certain both are genuine, though one has writing on it that may have been added post war to 'add value'. Any opinions are welcome. I can tell you from my experience in militaria that this thing has the 'right feel' and signs of being genuinely old. I'll explain what may not be evident in the pictures; The handle is worn smooth. The bark has not been cut or sanded, as there are no scratches to suggest this. Looks like good honest rubbing. The nails are rusted but appear to have 'fused' with the wood. They are fragile and as you may be able to see one has begun to crack. I wouldn't expect to see this from a 'rapidly aged' nail. There is no flaking. The wood displays no evidence of having been 'ages through burial'. It is bone dry, solid and tarnished. I am quite confident this patina is the effect of aging. There are no file or scratches and it is quite smooth, though somewhat stained. The end is darkened. This may be fire hardened, or it could be the reaction of the wood to iron over time. Suggestions on this appreciated. I am not sure about the leather. I'm not sure what would have been available in the trenches, so please comment. The knob of the club has a layer of dust on one side where it has been displayed for a while. This was intact when I received it. This suggests that it wasn't recently made, was probably displayed and lends credence to the 'part of a collection' the seller suggested. The hole for the lanyard is ages inside, suggesting it was drilled when the club was first constructed. There is one scratch that is recent, where it looks like it rubbed against a sharp edge perhaps (unfortunate). The difference is apparent, which allows me to compare the exterior patina to the original wood. My all favourite test, it REEKS of that musty old military smell. Defiantly a good sign and one very hard to produce through artificial aging. The writing I am not sure. Some of it looks age faded... I'm just not sure about that. "Why would you write on an item like that" well stranger things have been marked by the soldiers. Basically it passed all my tests, though with any 'DIY' job it's likely impossible to ever be 100% confident (unless a granddad bought it back I suppose). It seems to have too much detail for a repro. If it is a repro it is a very good one with exceptional attention to detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 23 January , 2014 Share Posted 23 January , 2014 I don't know what the trench club specialists will say, Shamsy, but for my money a club studded with ordinary floorboard brads of that length would be pretty useless for trench fighting. To be sure of inflicting sufficient injury to gain a decisive advantage over your adversary, allowing you to kill him with, for example, a knife, I think you would need to hit him square in the face with it. The nails are not lethal, in themselves, and their length would prevent the club head from making direct contact to kill or injure by blunt trauma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 23 January , 2014 Share Posted 23 January , 2014 But then is it possible that the club's function is not to kill, but to incpacitate? If you needed (for instance) a live prisoner, then someone with a facefull of nail wounds is possibly not going to cause much trouble as you drag him out of the trench. Also, if you whack him hard and leave him behind he's going to be a drain on the evacuation and hospital chain, plus being a bit of a warning that enemy raiding parties are bad news. Just a thought - I really no nothing about the matter. I assumed trench clubs were groups of blokes having smoking concerts and sing-songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 23 January , 2014 Share Posted 23 January , 2014 I think that if one chooses to collect something so ill defined as trench clubs one would be better keeping your money to spend it on recognised patterns rather than venturing onto one-offs unless they really do have a good provenance. If it is a one -off ask yourself, why did someone bother to bring it back from the trenches? Infantry soldiers generally have enough to carry. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 23 January , 2014 Share Posted 23 January , 2014 Whilst there were t/clubs with long spikes, I doubt if they were effective and may have been more for show and morale, I can't imagine getting the long spikes stuck in something and being unable or delayed in getting it free. The concept as I see it, is to kill by a severe blow to the head (blunt force trauma). Prisoners were usually taken at the point of a gun barrel or bayonet and had to be taken back to the attackers lines under their own steam. A badly wounded prisoner or one with severe head trauma would probably be of no use and would jeopardize the safety of the raiding party. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted 24 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2014 Thank you all for sharing your opinions. I am inclined to agree that long nails may not have been the choice for killing, but as mentioned it is documented that they were used in examples. My understanding of Trench raids goes that often they were conducted to capture said prisoners using intimidation, so perhaps the club was made with that in mind? I guess that it could simply be that whoever made it thought that nails would make it more dangerous? I'm not sure and will basically never know. Why bring it back? Well someone spent time making it for a start, plus I'd still maintain that stranger things have been bought back with servicemen for unknown reasons. Having studied some recognised and cirtified 'real' DIY jobs in AAL, the leather cord is exactly as an example found on another club (country unknown). So I guess i have answered my own question there. Yes it is period match. I'm still quite convinced it's a real example, but any more thoughts are always welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 12 March , 2014 Share Posted 12 March , 2014 Nice display of clubs, very impressive, I will try to get you an image if I can, as I haven't had much success using my cell phone camera, although I have posted two or three images it usually takes many attempts over an hour or so each time with the biggest problem being reducing the image size. I will see what I can do. khaki sorry its a bit late, measures 19" by 3/4" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 12 March , 2014 Share Posted 12 March , 2014 sorry its a bit late, measures 19" by 3/4" 2nd image shows business end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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