Memorial Records fiasco - thoughts please

[depaor01]

PM sent.

Thanks Tom,

Dave

[auchonvillerssomme]

Taking an example of 1st July 1916, 11th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 85 of the 224 o/r's listed as killed on that day were born in England or Scotland. That obviously won't be reflected in some other regiments, or other dates, but another example is 9th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers, they lost around 225 o/r's between 01/03/1918 - 11/11/1918, 87 of them were Scots or English born. Those are high percentages and will make a huge dent in the figures if taken out.

[hen190782]

Museum

If I was was wearing (or even had) a hat, I would take it off in recognition of your work

Nigel

[museumtom]

Thank you most graciously Nigel. I am one of your greatest fans. From your research I see you put in a colossal effort.

Kind regards.

Tom.

[brianoleary82]

The records are based on the work of the "Irish National War Memorial Committee" who originally published the records in book form in 1923, copies of which were originally kept in the Irish National War Memorial which they had built in Dublin, designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens.

The Committee was set up in 1919 under the Presidency of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Field-Marshal Lord French. The rest of the members of the committee throughout the 1920s were by and large individuals who had been involved in southern unionist politics in the 1910s, such as Andrew Jameson.

Though the Committee's archives are kept in Dublin, the catalogue doesn't seem to give any information on how it was compiled: http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20History/Dublin%20City%20Archives/royal_dublin_fusiliers/Documents/Irish_National_War_Memorial_Committee.pdf

It seems to me to have been compiled from various sources, including news-paper reports and regimental information - but I would imagine the compilers were keen to get as high a figure as possible.

As difficult as it is to decide what is and isn't an "Irish" death in WWI, its virtually impossible now to make an accurate and comprehensive stab at compiling such a list with the destruction so many pension and service records during WW2. Still, a much more accurate stab could still probably be made today, using the War Memorial Committee's very early work as a starting point.

[PHall]

My letter

Dave.

Well done, you! I've been reading through this forum and feel quite dispirited that the Irish Government is apparently only paying lip service to this important commemoration. Does something still rankle which prevents a wholehearted involvement? Have old attitudes been inherited? Perhaps they think it's just down to individual counties to focus on the Irish men who fought in WW1. I had hoped for better.

[Ian C]

With regards to the new Memorial Cross mentioned in post 46, I have heard that this is to be erected in Glasnevin Cemetery not Islandbridge. I emailed Glasnevin Trust about this some weeks ago but have not received a reply.

Ian Chambers

Dublin WFA

[Murrough]

Well done, you! I've been reading through this forum and feel quite dispirited that the Irish Government is apparently only paying lip service to this important commemoration. Does something still rankle which prevents a wholehearted involvement? Have old attitudes been inherited? Perhaps they think it's just down to individual counties to focus on the Irish men who fought in WW1. I had hoped for better.

I see nothing that rankles, the Irish goverment have inherited a database that has been known to be flawed, maybe it should have been corrected before now.Indeed,the minister with responsibility for Heritage has announced his plans for the centenary and his co-operation with his NI counterpart.http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/11/commemorative-arrangements-for-centenary-of-world-war-1-progress-deenihan/

This is major progress and hardly old attitudes.

[hen190782]

Murrough

Then why did the Government of the Republic of Ireland announce this as a corrected resource?

[Murrough]

Murrough

Then why did the Government of the Republic of Ireland announce this as a corrected resource?

Did not see that reference Fitz, but maybe there were some corrections to it?Just not complete yet.Lots of people interested in Irish involvement in WW1 have suspected in the past that the database was incorrect, perhaps it was incumbent upon them to have highlighted that fact sooner.

The Irish Government/media should be commended for highlighting this resource even if it is flawed.You would be amazed at the number of people in the ROI who do not know about these resources.

Regards,

M

[KGB]

It will just be another jolly for the Irish government and some Stormont placemen, ordinary lives will figure but little alas.

[museumtom]

Dublin has the most (in the Republic) Irish casualties. The count at the moment stands at 8475. Cork comes in next at 4336.

Cheers.

Tom.

[CaroleHope]

Terence Denman Ireland's Unknown Soldiers, The 16th (Irish) Division in the Great War examined the monthly returns for the battalions of that division. The bottom line of his findings are 5,469 killed of whom 3,887 (71%) were Irish born. He lists individual figures for 23 Irish battalions. This, of course, takes no account of 10th (Irish) Division, 36th (Ulster) Division or Irishmen (by whatever definition) who served and died in other divisions.

Carole

[Murrough]

The Irish Indo published some stats from the IWMR last Saturday in a supplement.Of the total of 49,200 in the records,30,987 are recorded as having been born in Ireland.

No place of birth was recorded for 7,405.

11,255 were recorded as born outside Ireland,These include 9,162 in England,1,357 in Scotland, 314 in Wales, and 165 in the Channel Islands.30 other countries are represented with much lesser numbers.

The research was conducted by genealogy company Eneclann using the IWMR as the source.

[Murrough]

Dublin has the most (in the Republic) Irish casualties. The count at the moment stands at 8475. Cork comes in next at 4336.

Cheers.

Tom.

Hi Tom,the Irish Indo published a county casualty list last Saturday as gleaned from the IWMR, it was done by the research company Eneclann, some sample figures below.

Tom, these figures appear to be a gross underestimation of the casualties suffered when compared to the updated figures now available.

Antrim 5,221.

Dublin 4,918.

Cork 2,244.

Down 2,048

Derry 1,357

Tyrone 1,059.

Tipperary 1,050.

Limerick 820.

Galway 754.

Mayo 720.

Donegal 700.

Waterford 634.

Kildare 580.

Wexford 529.

Wexford

[seaJane]

Do the Memorial Records include Navy too?

It's possible to filter CWGC to include those commemorated in Ireland (first on the list is http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/899513/CAMPBELL,%20MATTHEW of Dublin) but that of course includes non-Irish who are buried there.

The other option I have found is to filter in First World War, Served in Navy, with additional information Ireland, in which case first on the list is http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/408482/WALSH,%20JAMES of Ballinacurra, County Cork.

[museumtom]

Hello Murrough. I did notice the numbers in the Indo. I was going to mention it here on the forum but did not want it to become like the online IMR....put it up and others will correct it. As we ould soldiers say 'let them off.'

Cheers.

Tom.

[Murrough]

Do the Memorial Records include Navy too?

It's possible to filter CWGC to include those commemorated in Ireland (first on the list is http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/899513/CAMPBELL,%20MATTHEW of Dublin) but that of course includes non-Irish who are buried there.

The other option I have found is to filter in First World War, Served in Navy, with additional information Ireland, in which case first on the list is http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/408482/WALSH,%20JAMES of Ballinacurra, County Cork.

Thanks for the response SJ.The records do include Navy casualties, approx 500,.

Regards,

M.

[Murrough]

Hello Murrough. I did notice the numbers in the Indo. I was going to mention it here on the forum but did not want it to become like the online IMR....put it up and others will correct it. As we ould soldiers say 'let them off.'

Cheers.

Tom.

You have the right attitude Tom , the supplement was OK, but some inaccuracies rankled with me.

Regards,

M.

[KGB]

The only navy stuff I recall was that coastal counties had the lion's share and inland ones very few. It figures.

[Ronan McGreevy]

Hi,

My name is Ronan McGreevy from The Irish Times. I have been covering the lead up to the first World War and have been a member of this forum for quite a while.

It is a superb resource for people like yourselves who are passionately interest in finding out the truth about what happened to Irish soldiers in the first World War.

Next Saturday we will be doing a Q&A in the newspaper about Irish involvement in the war answering two fundamental questions.

1) How many Irish served in the first World War?

2) How many served in the British armed forces?

3) How many served in other armed forces? (I am trying to find out if there are any definitive figures from the US, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and South African forces in particular).

How many Irish were killed in the first World War?

I notice that many contributors to this forum have been grappling with these questions for years. If anybody wishes to contact me regarding these questions, I can be contacted at rmcgreevy@irishtimes.com or 0857288553.

I would be happy to highlight your research in The Irish Times.

Regards and best wishes,

Ronan McGreevy

[CGM]

Ronan, have you seen the National Archives of Australia website "Mapping our Anzacs" ?

With Australian service records freely available it has been possible to produce lists and maps of their servicemen and the women who served, according to birth.

This is the website:

http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/ (CLICK TO ENTER)

Select the small UK and Ireland map

Select Ireland (Born 4731. Enlisted 1)

Red flags mark places of birth (click to see the names)

and on the RH side there is:

See what the numbers mean.

Or see the other search options.

CGM

[museumtom]

Irish Times and the Weekly Irish Times.

Late last year I trawled through them from August 1914 up to 1926. They consistently listed Rolls of Honour and unlike 90% of the other papers did not abandon coverage of Irish casualties after the rebellion. Of all the Irish newspapers, with the exception of the King's County Chronicle and the King's County Independent the Irish Times and the Weekly Irish Times were the most informative.

All the newspapers of the time, of the counties south of Dublin (but not including Cork) gave great coverage up to the rebellion. Then the news of the war and names of men and women who died in the war almost ceased. All, that is, except the Irish Times. It seemed to increase the coverage and information on casualties up to 1926 (I have not gone any further than that year but it did continue after that). Of all the newspapers, the Irish Times has the best coverage of this. The problem with the Great War casualties is mainly finding the officers. There are many books, Irelands Memorial Records, Our Heroes, De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour, Bond of Sacrifice etc that give some information on these but the 'Times' blows them all out of the water.

I can see that early in the war the majority of military personnel listed in the Irish Times and the Weekly Irish Times were from the North, mainly Belfast, why?, I do not know, perhaps you might let us know/, but later on it covered the whole country. Names and addresses not found in any other publication are in your goldmine of a newspaper. It should be utilized more.

Cheers.

Tom.

[kildaremark]

Hi Ronan,

I believe it would be very important to ensure that the article doesn't stick to the traditional view of the Irish joining the RDF, RMF, Leinsters, Irish Guards etc. The percentage of Irish in the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Army Service Corps, Royal Air Force etc was also quite high but they are very often overlooked in articles with the simplistic view of Irishmen in Irish regiments. A search on the popular genealogical websites gives some indication of the number who served. For example, there are 15,925 surviving service records with the address "Dublin". There are 76,782 records for servicemen with the birth address "Ireland" (some of these are double counted by the genealogy websites search engines). As only 40% of records survive and this doesn't include the Irish Guards, RAF, Navy or anyone who remained in service after the war, that's a potential 191,955 records that existed before 60% of the records were destroyed.

Look forward to the article!

Mark

[museumtom]

Where do these newspapers get their numbers from? What are they based on? Who now quotes these new figures as historical fact?

There is a project afoot to address the question, how many Irishmen and women died in the great war?. It began 7 years ago. It only covers the 26 counties, not the 32 and is not yet complete. The parameters for inclusion are, born in Ireland, born of Irish parents, spouse is living in Ireland, casualties buried in Ireland but not from here, or lived in Ireland when they enlisted. Using these parameters 16 counties have been completed. All references used in the project were compiled or published (including county and local newspapers) before 1922. In this way the temptation to plagiarise and copy a modern authors opinions, 'facts' and more importantly, his errors, are avoided.

The following counties are now completed, Carlow (567), Clare (681), Cork (4338), Dublin (8479), Kerry, (718), Kilkenny (787), Offaly (657), Limerick (1295), Longford (326), Laois (569), Roscommon (524), Tipperary (1499), Waterford (1149), Westmeath (729), Wexford (895) and Wicklow (763). Currently in process is Kildare and will be around 1100 casualties.

A casualty may be listed in two counties, i.e. born in Tipperary but lived all his life in Roscommon-he would be listed in both counties. Keeping this in mind, and accepting the parameters listed above, the final figure you seek will only be known when the 26 counties are completed, added together and the duplicates deleted.

The last Government and past Irish President and the present Government and President were asked to support this project. No help has to this date been offered. Not a single reply from any minister has been received. The Queen of England was asked to help as there were soldiers of the king and were buried under the Union Jack. Her secretary replied that it was not the place of the English Monarch to interfere with the workings of a foreign state.

The project continues on regardless.

Cheers.

Tom.