Possible UNESCO classification for France and Belgium WW1 monuments

[angelab]

I have just seen an article in Le Monde

http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2014/01/09/14-18-la-france-souhaite-inscrire-80-sites-au-patrimoine-de-l-humanite_4345285_823448.html. (sorry, can't do proper links with the ipad)

about the possible Unesco classification of 80 WW1 sites in France and Belgium. Mostly cemeteries and memorials, these would include Douaumont, Beaumont-Hamel, Longueval, Fromelles, Tyne Cot, Langemark, the Chemin des Dames, Vimy, as well as major Portuguese, Polish, Chinese, Irish, American, Italian etc.

The whole process of classification takes ages, but there are hopes of getting it through by 1918.

The article also says that World War 1 was the first war in which individual soldiers who fell were each accorded their own grave, whereas in earlier wars this had been the case only for officers.

Angela

[zijde26]

Interesting. I read the article in "Le Monde".

Gilbert Deraedt

[Christina Holstein]

The problem is that no one knows what will be involved once it's on the list. Will it mean that areas are closed off, will there be limited access, will sites have to be restored/maintained and if so to what standards? No one seems to know.

As regards Verdun I do fear that large areas of the battlefield will just be closed off. That would please the authorities, after all, as there's so much unexploded stuff still around.

Christina

[Sly]

Bonjour Christina,

Nobody knows yet but I don't think that the sites will be closed off, considering the number of them I think it's simply impossible. One of my concern is about guiding on a UNESCO site, it would mean that all the battlefield guides will have to be certified "guide conférencier national" (which today I believe is the only person authorized to guide on a such listed site in France)...

Sly

[SWorrall]

Sly,

I am interested in your most recent comment.

I can understand that, if one is a French citizen, one must hold the title of Guide Conferencier National to take parties around a UNESCO site. The official line seems to be that it is also a requirement for any person giving commentary or taking visits around historical monuments or museums?

http://www.avot-visites.fr/guide-conferencier-national/ says:

Cadre règlementaire du métier de guide-conférencier En France, la profession de guide-conférencier est réglementée par l’article L. 221-1 du code du tourisme qui fait obligation pour la visite commentée dans les musées et monuments historiques, dans le cadre d’une prestation commercialisée par un opérateur de voyages et de séjours, d’avoir recours à des personnes qualifiées, détentrices de la carte professionnelle de guide-conférencier. La délivrance de cette carte professionnelle est soumise aux conditions fixées par les articles R. 221-1 et suivants du code du tourisme. - See more at: http://www.avot-visites.fr/guide-conferencier-national/#sthash.f4ftkOrn.dpuf

But this runs into the old chestnut that persons of other nationalities are bound by the rules of their place of origin, not by these rules? A German guide operates to German rules, the British to British rules and so on.

If French places are listed by UNESCO, what impact will that have on the ability of non-French nationals, domiciled outside France, to lead visits around them and speak about them whilst on-site?

Simon.

[Sly]

Simon, someone whose domiciliation is in France (living more than 6 month of the year in France) and working in France is submitted to the French legislation but I don't know for a foreigner who is domiciliated in another country. What are the legal requirements for a guide in the UK (or in another country) to operate on a UNESCO site? Is the Blue badge required ? or any other card ?

I don't know the answer to your question but I hope it won't affect too much our guiding activity.

Sly

[ploggy]

Hi,
as far as I know the only change will be that all the remains, mine craters, pill boxes, memorials, cemeteries etc... will be protected. A farmer will no more be able to destroy a pill box or fill a crater.

but that's all.

Claude

[SWorrall]

Simon, someone whose domiciliation is in France (living more than 6 month of the year in France) and working in France is submitted to the French legislation but I don't know for a foreigner who is domiciliated in another country. What are the legal requirements for a guide in the UK (or in another country) to operate on a UNESCO site? Is the Blue badge required ? or any other card ?

I don't know the answer to your question but I hope it won't affect too much our guiding activity.

Sly

Sly,

thanks for that quick and honest reply.

As you probably know, the use of the title 'guide' is not regulated within Britain, although the 'Blue Badge' scheme is recognised as having a certain status.

My un-informed opinion is that it will have no effect save that mentioned by Claude/ploggy. It will offer certain levels of protection for the sites listed against any interference or development.

Simon.

[Christina Holstein]

Ploggy, Sly,

I hope you're right.

There is proposal at Verdun to turn the forests into a fôret d'exception - as far as I understand it, this has nothing to do with Unesco. I asked what that would mean and got the hair-raising reply (to me, anyway) that they could be closed off and returned to nature - i.e. trees would fall and not be cleared, paths would not be cleared, etc. and the whole thing would become impassable. I don't think that could be true of large areas because the only income from that area derives from forestry and hunting and both would become impossible. However, it could mean that paths now open to the public could be closed off. The current military governor has had Entrée Interdit signs put up all over the place, particularly on the Left Bank and along the eastern edge of the Heights where there's loads to see that is almost untouched. It's bad enough already. I just hope a Unesco listing doesn't make it worse and no one seems to know.

Christina

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

The Belgian list is final: http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5886/

It lists only cemeteries and memorials, no actual remains from the war (trenches, craters, bunkers etc.). As such, I think it is quite worthless.

 

Jan

[trajan]

On 17.01.2017 at 10:10, AOK4 said:

The Belgian list is final: http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5886/

It lists only cemeteries and memorials, no actual remains from the war (trenches, craters, bunkers etc.). As such, I think it is quite worthless.

 

I agree. Seeing how UNESCO has listed in one block the Roman frontiers in Europe and their surviving remains (see http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430) it seems crazy not to do something similar for the WW1 remnants.

[JWK]

"Unesco says no" 

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/04/20/wo-i-sites-geen-werelderfgoed-/

(In Dutch, sorry)

 

The NGO "Icomos", which advises UNESCO on these matters, issued a negative advice about the recognition of WW1 sites in Belgium and France.

The panel concluded "these sites don't have an exceptional universal value"

UNESCO is apprehensive to recognise monument that glorify war, violence and victory.

 

Belgium holds an opposite  view: "This is not a dossier about the battlefields of WW1, with all possible associations to war, violence and triumphalism. This is about cemeteries and remembrance-sites, about peace, values, individuals, reconciliation. It's about the first individual wargraves in history. Sites where, generations later, hundreds of thousands come to pay their respects"

 

Flanders has sent additional information to this NGO Icomos, and they expect a new advice in May.

UNESCO will then decide during a conference in Bahrain this summer. [Best time of year to visit the Gulf region.... not....]

So Belgium has now started a "diplomatic offensive" to get a favourable decision. They'll be inviting UNESCO representaives from all over the world to visit these sites.

"But it's gonna be difficult to make it clear to UNESCO this does not go against their values as an organisation".

 

Also, UNESCO rarely goes against Icomos' advice......

 

 

Here's France's list:  http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5884/

(Why is the German Cemetery at Lens-Sallaumines not on there?)

Edited 21 April , 2018 by JWK

[AOK4]

Quite remarkably, no one on this forum (until now) seemed willing to say anything about the inscription of 139 WWI sites on the UNESCO world heritage list (whenever a noble somebody, usually a former football player or singer, dies, his death is reported within minutes...).

The original list and proposal, rejected in 2018, was altered and reduced.

Some information and a full list of sites can be found here:

https://www.culture.gouv.fr/en/Press/Press-releases2/Inscription-of-139-funerary-sites-and-memorials-of-the-First-World-War-Western-Front-on-the-UNESCO-World-Heritage-List

I wonder how this will affect the sites. Will there be more visitors (tourists)? Will the sites be better maintained? And what about possible consequences about the areas (windmills, other changes in the proximity)?

Jan

[Geniesoldaat]

About time that at least a part of those sites are now listed as world heritage.

[Scalyback]

On 27/09/2023 at 05:37, AOK4 said:

Quite remarkably, no one on this forum (until now) seemed willing to say anything about the inscription of 139 WWI sites on the UNESCO world heritage list (whenever a noble somebody, usually a former football player or singer, dies, his death is reported within minutes...).

The original list and proposal, rejected in 2018, was altered and reduced.

Some information and a full list of sites can be found here:

https://www.culture.gouv.fr/en/Press/Press-releases2/Inscription-of-139-funerary-sites-and-memorials-of-the-First-World-War-Western-Front-on-the-UNESCO-World-Heritage-List

I wonder how this will affect the sites. Will there be more visitors (tourists)? Will the sites be better maintained? And what about possible consequences about the areas (windmills, other changes in the proximity)?

Jan

A strange one. Near a UNESCO site,  Blaenavon Industrial Landscape - UNESCO World Heritage Centre Yes near the Big Pit an actual mine and unique. Yet they throw everything at it to be historical.  "Here can be seen the terraced housing of the workers", exactly the same as the rest of South Wales and there are better examples. 

So I doubt it will add to more visitors due to UNESCO status. The site/area iare not better maintained both via historical monuments or local housing. Some of the houses in the area are rougher than the original build, its a tough area. 

Not a fan of the UNESCO label for obvious reasons. Its just a tick box exercise.