HMTs Royal Edward and Royal George 1915

[Porteous]

I am researching a very long (65000) word memoire written by an American officer of the Warwickshire Yeomanry who, in July of 1915, was sent out To Alexandria) in charge of a draft of second line troops as reinforcements for the 1st WY, who were then serving with the 29th Division in Gallipoli.

He does not mention precise dates, but mentions that the HMT following his was sunk, but that the ship he was in survived the war unscathed.

I know he arrived in Alexandria sometime in August 1915 and have tentatively identified the two ships as the HMT Royal Edward ( Carrying 29th Div reinforcements. Left Avonmouth 28th July, arrived Alexandria 10th Aug, sunk in the Greek Islands 13th Aug), and her sister ship, the HMT Royal George, which survived the war and is , I believe, the ship he travelled on.

Does anyone know the sailing dates of the HMT Royal George out of Avonmouth (possibly Devonport, but unlikely) prior to the 28th of July 1915?

Many thanks

[sotonmate]

I have looked in a ledger or two before now covering movements of military by sea,I thought I might find my notes as I fancy I did the period you seek,but can find only some in 1916 and 1918.

Ledgers WO25 at Kew keep the shipping documents for these chartered military transports,and in various sections. One includes shipping out of the UK for Abroad (widespread destinations) and another covers Between Stations Abroad (such as ships out of Marseilles which have picked up entrained personnel and equipment for other UK bases abroad).

WO25/3536 covers ships out of UK (and I know that there are quite a few which went into the Med) for Abroad.1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915.

WO25/3542 covers ships Between Stations Abroad.1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915.

The ship's papers for each sailing will give home port and date of sailing detail with details of units carried,named officers but not ORs etc.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I am aware myself of the Royal Edward but here is a thread from several years ago about the Royal George - it might be of some interest?,

 

 

[Kath]

David,

HMT Royal George, from Avonmouth, left Devonport 29th July She called at Malta 5th August and arrived at Alexandria 9th. Aug. She left for Mudros harbour the 11th. arriving the 13th.

The ROYAL EDWARD left Avonmouth the 28th.July and Devonport the 30th. arriving at Alexandria on the 11th.

She sailed from Alexandria 12th August and was torpedoed the morning of the 13th.

The magazine 'Sea Breezes' has an account by Captain F.J.Thompson of the Royal George as a troopship.

Kath.

[Guest]

On 07/01/2014 at 03:15, David Craig said:

I am researching a very long (65000) word memoire written by an American officer of the Warwickshire Yeomanry who, in July of 1915, was sent out To Alexandria) in charge of a draft of second line troops as reinforcements for the 1st WY, who were then serving with the 29th Division in Gallipoli.

He does not mention precise dates, but mentions that the HMT following his was sunk, but that the ship he was in survived the war unscathed.

I know he arrived in Alexandria sometime in August 1915 and have tentatively identified the two ships as the HMT Royal Edward ( Carrying 29th Div reinforcements. Left Avonmouth 28th July, arrived Alexandria 10th Aug, sunk in the Greek Islands 13th Aug), and her sister ship, the HMT Royal George, which survived the war and is , I believe, the ship he travelled on.

Does anyone know the sailing dates of the HMT Royal George out of Avonmouth (possibly Devonport, but unlikely) prior to the 28th of July 1915?

Many thanks

David - If you have his name it will be easy to find out his exact disembarkation date at Alexandria from his Medal Index Card. I suspect it will be close to 10th August 1915.

I think he has events slightly out of synchronisation. There is also the distinct possibility he had been on dry land for 3-4 days when the Royal Edward was sunk.

According to "Burnley and the Royal Edward Disaster by Denis Otter and Andrew Mackay (privately published August 2005) the HMT Royal Edward sailed from Devonport on 28th July, reaching Malta on 6th Aug and Alexandria on 10th August. departed for Gallipoli on 11th August and was sunk on 13th August by UB 14. The book also records that the HMT Royal George sailed from England on the same day "with troops for Gallipoli". I suspect you are on the right tack but the account seems to suggest the ship that sunk was following his ship. As the HMT Royal Edward had departed Alexandria and was heading for Mudros, this would suggest your man and his reinforcements were heading in the same direction and ahead. There is something not quite right with the fragments you have. Firstly the 1/1st Warwickshire Yeomanry had not even set sail for Gallipoli when the HMT Royal Edward sank, and secondly the Warwickshire Yeomanry did not receive reinforcements while at Gallipoli. All reinforcements for 2nd Mtd Div units - all 14 regiments - never got past Egypt.

The other anomaly is the claim the Warwickshire Yeomanry was attached to the 29th Div. This was not the case. It was one of 14 Yeomanry regiments that formed the 2nd Mtd Div in Egypt. In August it was quickly dismouted, given infantry equipment and sent on 14th Aug to Gallipoli from Alexandria. The Warwickshire Yeomanry sailed on the HMT Ascania. It is important to note that this was the day after the HMT Royal Edward was sunk. Almost every Yeomanry war diary and history mentions this. For the Warwickshire Yeomanry it was even more pertinent as their horse ship -the SS Wayfarer - was torpedoed in April 1915 on its way out to Egypt. It was run aground in Ireland to save it. Again this is mentioned in many Yeomanry accounts.

Prior to this sailing the HMT Royal George was part of a large convoy transporting the 13th Div to Mudros (off Gallipoli). It left Avonmouth on or about the 15th June 1915 and arrived at Mudros on 2nd July along with the HMT Ivernia. It was carrying the 8th (Pioneer) Bn Royal Wesh Regt and the HQ 13th (Western) Div. The voyage took 17 days and the ships stopped at Gibraltar and Malta and Alexandria (where some troops disembarked) on the way. The timings would easily allow for the HMT Royal George to get back to Avonmouth for another draft of reinforcements.

His account appears to be slightly wrong in that he likely disembarked at Alexandria around 9th/10th/11th August and likely stayed in Egypt to join his regiment (then still in Egypt) while the HMT Royal Edward carried on to Mudros and was tragically sunk. [Edit] I see from Kath's post above that the HMT Royal George went on to Mudros. ....but in the docs I have there is no record of it arriving in August - see document below. (although this may well be a mistake in the records). It reappears at Mudros on 20th September carrying reinforcements for the RWF, 6th Leinsters and 5th Dorsets - units that had been at Gallipoli since early August. I have a 49 page document that purports to record every ship that arrived at Mudros between 26th June 1915 and 11th Feb 1916.

From the anomalies in his account, I would suggest he is either (best case) slightly mixing up the sequence of events or (worst case) slightly embellishing his account to give the impression he was nearly sunk - a claim that anyone might rightly make who had been on an HMT at the time. I am very slightly suspicious as to why he claims the Warwickshire Yeomanry were attached to the 29th Div...is it because he wants to reinforce a (false) association with a ship that sank with 29th Div reinforcements? It is something to be aware of. At a long stretch of the imagination one might argue his reinforcement draft was 'attached' to the 29th Div for the voyage out. I can't yet find out which other units were on the HMT Royal George.

I would be really fascinated to know who he was and read his account. I have a deep interest in the Yeomanry and have transcribed all their Gallipoli diaries and a few personal accounts. I would be particularly interested to know if he made it to Gallipoli. The only explanation for a yeomanry Officer to be on a ship ahead of the HMT Royal Edward would be one of the MLOs or AMLOs - Military Landing Officers or Assistant Military Landing Officers - who sailed a few days ahead in order to act as marshals on the beaches and direct the Troops who landed. One or two were picked from almost every Yeomany regiment of the 2nd Mtd Div. Some diary accounts record meeting brother officers doing this role when the troops landed at Suvla Bay. If memory serves there were a dozen or so Yeomanry Officers doing this role. If he landed in Egypt on 10th Aug there would have been just enough time to have departed with them. The trouble I have with this is that there was severe competition to get out to Gallipoli among the Officers (some were left in Egypt and ended up fighting the Senussi - another story) so it seems unlikely a second line Officer went off to Gallipoli when some of the first line Officers were prevented from going. The MLO jobs were a small compensation for not departing with the Regiment to fight and if memory serves, generally went to Majors who had been Squadron commanders or regimental 2ICs rather than subalterns as the role demanded some authority. It is possible he was one of these MLOs, but with the available info, I think very unlikely.

I hope this helps. Would dearly love to read his account. My paternal grandfather was with the Derbyshire Yeomanry in Egypt and Gallipoli, so it is of great interest.

 

* On the attached document in feint pencil on 13th Aug 1915 there is written: "Royal Edward torpedoed and sunk. 1,000 lost". There is no record of the Royal George arriving at Mudros on this date. The ships recorded arriving on the 13th were HMTs Japanese Prince, Cawdor Castle, Saldanha, Kingstonian and Anglo Egyptian - none with Yeomanry and some with 29th Div men. The next ship to arrive with 29th Div men were the HMTs Ajax and Franconia on the 14th Aug. The Yeomanry don't start to arrive until 16th/17th Aug and certainly didn't include reinforcements. There are 48 similar pages recording the comings and goings of reinforcements and the ships they arrived at Mudros. Each page is headed "Embarkation Officer".

[Kath]

Martin, this is from p17 of Otter’s book, I presume:

“the HMT Royal Edward sailed from Devonport on 28th July, reaching Malta on 6th Aug and Alexandria on 10th August. departed for Gallipoli on 11th August.”

It’s wrong. See my post #4.

He also says there that the Royal Edward was sighted at the Lizard on the 29^th. Yes, she was, after leaving Avonmouth on the 28^th., not after leaving Devonport.

HMT Royal George, from Avonmouth, left Devonport 29th July, not “on the same day”.as the Royal Edward. hence the Royal Edward seems to be the following ship.

Kath.

[Guest]

Martin, this is from p17 of Otter’s book, I presume:

“the HMT Royal Edward sailed from Devonport on 28th July, reaching Malta on 6th Aug and Alexandria on 10th August. departed for Gallipoli on 11th August.”

It’s wrong. See my post #4.

He also says there that the Royal Edward was sighted at the Lizard on the 29^th. Yes, she was, after leaving Avonmouth on the 28^th., not after leaving Devonport.

HMT Royal George, from Avonmouth, left Devonport 29th July, not “on the same day”.as the Royal Edward. hence the Royal Edward seems to be the following ship.

Kath.

Thanks Kath. I bow to your infinitely greater knowledge on this. Shame on me for quoting other's work and not checking. ...that aside, it still does not change my view; it is unlikely a second line officer in the Warwickshire Yeomanry would be in a ship ahead of the HMT Royal Edward when his regiment was a day behind the HMT Royal Edward.

You will note that the HMT Royal George is not recorded as arriving at Mudros on the 13th or 14th or 15th. Any ideas if it was involved in rescuing survivors from the Royal Edward?

MG

[Chris Grimshaw]

Hi All

Followed this post with interest, does anyone have any information on trooping runs made by the SS Canada late June early July 1915, I know she carried the 2nd Battn South Wales Borderers out to Egypy in March 1915, reference Westlake but I can find no further reference to her.

Any help appreciated.

Chris

[gaffa]

On 07/01/2014 at 22:22, sotonmate said:

I have looked in a ledger or two before now covering movements of military by sea,I thought I might find my notes as I fancy I did the period you seek,but can find only some in 1916 and 1918.

Ledgers WO25 at Kew keep the shipping documents for these chartered military transports,and in various sections. One includes shipping out of the UK for Abroad (widespread destinations) and another covers Between Stations Abroad (such as ships out of Marseilles which have picked up entrained personnel and equipment for other UK bases abroad).

WO25/3536 covers ships out of UK (and I know that there are quite a few which went into the Med) for Abroad.1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915.

WO25/3542 covers ships Between Stations Abroad.1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915.

The ship's papers for each sailing will give home port and date of sailing detail with details of units carried,named officers but not ORs etc.

Is there any earlier Ledgers of ships sailing from Gallipoli to Leminos /Imbros and Alexandria during the period 28May 1915 arriving 3 June 1915. This is from Grandfathers Diary. 

[sotonmate]

4 hours ago, gaffa said:

Is there any earlier Ledgers of ships sailing from Gallipoli to Leminos /Imbros and Alexandria during the period 28May 1915 arriving 3 June 1915. This is from Grandfathers Diary. 

Haven't been on here in a while ! Here is a link to the file at Kew covering moves "between stations abroad" for the period you mention. There may not be the moves you need but you might be lucky as I don't know if they logged the transits from Gallipoli to the islands,though they might have done the runs to Egypt. If things are as they were you would have to read the files in situ at Kew.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/C4400403

[alantwo]

15 hours ago, sotonmate said:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/C4400403

The file kindly suggested by Sotonmate does not have any records of ships embarking Gallipoli/Suvla/Cape Helles during the period 28th May-3rd June. In the file there are a couple embarking Lemnos, but again not in the time frame mentioned.

WO 25-3702 Between Stations Abroad Jan to Jun 1915 has ships embarking Mudros etc. If there is a particular ship you are looking for, let me know and I can look it up.

Regards

Alan