Alan24 Posted 6 January , 2014 Share Posted 6 January , 2014 I have found a list in a diary, of men from 125 HB RGA killed on 27/09/17 in the Ypres area. Amoung the list is "Bdr. Hogg" number 292155. The CWGC webite has him down as 156th HB RGA but his number appears to be in a block used by 125 HB so I was wondering if the CWGC have made an error or could he have been on attachment or recently transfered? Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 6 January , 2014 Share Posted 6 January , 2014 Medal Index Card for Lance Hogg has two numbers = 187 then 292155, if this helps at all. Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 6 January , 2014 Share Posted 6 January , 2014 Just to eliminate any help from Soldiers Died in the Great War,they don't show his unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 6 January , 2014 Share Posted 6 January , 2014 If 292155 is in a block for 125 Heavy Battery, then it looks somewhat different according to CWGC records CAYGILL G 292150 133RD BTY 26/04/1918 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY COPELAND S 292112 125TH HEAVY BTY 05/12/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY HOGG LW 292155 156TH HEAVY BTY 27/09/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY HOUGHTON JJ 292160 133RD HEAVY BTY 31/05/1918 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY MUSSALLI AE 292167 133RD HEAVY BTY 22/04/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY PORTEOUS RJ 292130 125TH HEAVY BTY 17/09/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY STONES J 292102 125TH HEAVY BTY 27/09/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY VENABLES WB 292128 43RD SIEGE BTY 03/10/1917 ROYAL GARRISON ARTILLERY However, whilst there were a number of 125 Battery casualties on that date, these may be of interest, as they are in adjacent graves... HOGG, LAUNCELOT WILLIAM. Rank: Bombardier. Service No: 292155. Date of Death: 27/09/1917. Age: 29. Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery. 156th Heavy Bty. Grave Reference: IV. I. 4. Cemetery: BARD COTTAGE CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Joseph Fewler Hogg and Hannah Hogg, of Newcastle-on-Tyne. SEPHTON, W. Rank: Gunner. Service No: 112748. Date of Death: 27/09/1917. Age: 36. Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery. 125th Heavy Bty. Grave Reference: IV. I. 5. Cemetery: BARD COTTAGE CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Joseph and Mary Sephton; husband of Isabella Sephton, of 33, Bedford Square, Leigh, Lancs. STONES, J. Rank: Gunner. Service No: 292102. Date of Death: 27/09/1917. Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery. 125th Heavy Bty. Grave Reference: IV. I. 3. Cemetery: BARD COTTAGE CEMETERY but that may be the only connection. The Army would have supplied the bulk of the information, but the family also provided their details, so there were two possible checks to correct any "mistake". If you feel it important and that a mistake has been made, the CWGC would be the place to enquire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 6 January , 2014 Share Posted 6 January , 2014 Certainly all the 133rd Hvy Bty casualties may be explained by the fact that it was the 2nd County Palatine Battery. It would be impossible to definitely say whether a mistake has been made but at various times the original members may have been posted to any number of other batteries. Without his records it is impossible to say, but another member who did serve with 156th Hvy Bty was 157/292129 Harry Leonard Barlow. Posted to 110 HB on the 13 May 1917 and then to 156 HB on the 15 Aug 1917. It is possible that they were posted together. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 13 March , 2014 Share Posted 13 March , 2014 Alan Continued from the other post about the County Palatine RGA, the Bolton Evening News "Rally to the Flag" column for 12/04/1915 reported that Joseph Stones had enlisted into the County Palatine RGA on Saturday 10/04/1915 at Bolton. His MRIC shows his number as 125 later 292102. UKSDGW shows his number as 262102 and that he enlisted at Farnworth. The Bolton Chronicle of 17/04/1915 confirms that Joseph Stones of 93 Primrose St, Kearsley had enlisted into the CP RGA at Bolton Town Hall the previous Saturday. I could not find any mention in the papers about his death in 1917. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 15 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 March , 2014 Thanks for that Brian, The number 262102 is clearly wrong in UKSDGW. Shame that there is no photo after his death, was this common in the BEN to publish pics etc.? I havnen't yet searched any newspapers. I haven't as yet found any pictures of 125 HB or individuals, my relative only joined them in France about a month after they went overseas so any pics taken in England wouldn't show him. The only photo I have of my relative is that taken in April 1916 by Arthur Dinsdale Studios, 157 King Street, Gt. Yarmouth. Back to Bmdr Hogg...it would be strange that he got transfered then died fighting alongside his old comrades...I suppose the next step is to double check if 125 and 156 were in the same location or part of the same HAG on 27 Sep 1917. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 18 March , 2014 Share Posted 18 March , 2014 Alan The Bolton Papers are very good for pictures. The Bolton Evening News and it's weekly Bolton Journal and Guardian appealed to the families of casualties for photos and biographies, as did a separate weekly paper The Bolton Chronicle. They also appealed to mothers with more than three serving sons to send photos and the Journal pictured these, including the mother, under "Mothers of England". There was another feature "Heroes from the Schools", showing old boys who were serving. As the war progressed those who were decorated were also pictured. Not all families responded however, my grandfather was wounded prior to 05/09/1916 and there is not even a mention until he is named in the Official Casualty List in the BEN on 12/10/1917. I would say that local papers offer the best chance of putting a face to a name. Bolton Library Local Studies has an Index of The Journal. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 8 May , 2014 Share Posted 8 May , 2014 Alan I am going through the Bolton papers of WW1 again in order to get all church, school and workplace Rolls of Honour (for men who were serving). On 28/04/1916 the Bolton Chronicle printed the names on the ROH for Messrs John Musgrave and Sons (1913) Ltd, Globe Ironworks, Kay St, Bolton. Four former moulders were serving, including Joseph Stones. No regiment shown against his name. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 8 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2014 That's interesting as he actually left England for France that very night. 28 April 1916 11.30pm Southampton Docks. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 6 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2014 It has now been established that the Joseph Stones in the Globe Ironworks RoH is not L125/292105 Joseph Stones of 125 HB RGA. This man is in fact L/24079 Driver Joseph Stones who, on 18 May 1915 attested to "C. Palatine RFA" in Bolton (later 171 Bde. I believe). His occupation was listed as 'Moulder' and lived at 64 Hengist St. Bolton. Whilst at Salisbury Plain, Stones and another man named Booth were 'released' to the Globe Ironworks for "Munitions Work'. The Ironworks were instructed to inform the Army if they left the employment of J Musgrove & Sons, which Stones did on 10 May 1916. A letter & travel warrent was sent to the Ironworks asking for the Soldier to be told to report to Newcastle and join 84 Bde RFA. Later (Jan 1918) Cpl. Stones was accepted as a Cadet in the RFC but seems to be back in the RFA by 1919. At some point he also deserted his wife and she wrote to the Records Officer at Woolwich to find out his current address as he seems to have run off with their marrage certifiacte and her birth certificate! It's all on his records on Ancestry.co.uk and one of the most interesting files I've seen. Brian, was BOOTH one of the four mentioned on the RoH? Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 Alan24 wrote: " I have found a list in a diary, of men from 125 HB RGA killed on 27/09/17 in the Ypres area. Among the list is "Bdr. Hogg" number 292155. The CWGC webite has him down as 156th HB RGA but his number appears to be in a block used by 125 HB so I was wondering if the CWGC have made an error or could he have been on attachment or recently transferred?" The war diary of 125th Heavy Battery, RGA for that date indicates "Our casualties were heavy; some of the members killed being Sergeant Copeland, Bdr Hogg . . ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 9 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2014 Dick, I supose the 'clincher' will be the answer to this question... "Where were 156 HB on 27/09/17?" regards Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 11 June , 2014 Share Posted 11 June , 2014 I think the "clincher" is already there:- The War Diary states "some of the members killed being Sergeant Copeland, Bdr Hogg,........" Post #4 confirms Copeland as 125 Heavy Battery; and shows Stones, Hogg and Sephton in 3 adjacent graves; Stones and Sephton also being 125 Battery. It would seem possible that CWGC may take the War Diary information as being more "current" than that originally supplied by the Army. Hogg's transfer papers from 156 may have been lost, but the War Diarist of 125 certainly referred to him as a member of that Battery and not 156. However, in the scale of things, a correction to the headstone may be a long time coming, but at least you know he lies with his mates, not amongst people he didn't know in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 11 June , 2014 Share Posted 11 June , 2014 I think it highly probable that Gnr. Hogg was KIA while with 125 HB, but I cannot see that the war diary would be taken as the last word on this. Sgt. Copeland was not killed on that day but died on the 5th Dec. 1917, unless that is also a mistake by the GWGC. Obviously he may have been badly wounded in Sept. but it just proves that one cannot take everything that is written as the truth. Also I cannot see how post 4 confirms he was with 125 HB, his number only confirms that he enlisted with that unit and is buried with two comrades. I would suggest the GWGC would want his records as proof of what unit he served with, unless there was a clerical error made by them and they have the original documents to view and amend if needed. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 11 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2014 It is certain that LW Hogg enlisted into 125 HB as his number and enlistment location (Liverpool) on UKSDGW are entirly consistant with the recruitment into that battery. The 'unofficial war diary' which has been posted by John Reed on another thread and is known to contain errors by the Author. The Author also writes that he was away from the Battery on leave and in hospital from Sept. 10 1917 to Nov 25th 1917 - therefore the 27/9/17 incident which killed 4 125 men (as shown in CWCG records) and Hogg was not a first hand account from that author. That note is the only clue to the author's identity, other than that he sailed with the battery and remained with them until at least 11/11/18. It was, however, this 'unofficial' war diary which started me thinking that Hogg was killed in 125 not 156. Therefore the 'clincher must still remain..."was 156 HB in the Ypres Salient on 27/9/17 or not?" Just to cloud the waters, KEVROW did point out earlier that a couple of men did pass from 125 to 156... Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan24 Posted 8 July , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 July , 2014 Well, and the clincher was....CWGC Archive Online which shows LW Hogg as 125 HB not 156 as suspected. Some interesting stuff in these new documents, managed to find out where my relative was first buried, just need to find a map of 62b. S4. 2.5 Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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