Remembering them

[Curlew1919]

I have often wondered how nice it would be if some of those on the Menin Gate could be commemorated where they actually fell.

Such as a simple inexpensive plaque in the many cemeteries scattered around Ypres with unidentified graves.

And putting up a list of names stating those with no known grave that had fell there.

I will take Sanctuary Wood Cemetery (near Hill 62) Zillebeke as an example.

There are 1,989 burials there and there are only 636 of them identifiable (1,353 are unidentifiable)

I will also take 1^st battalion Royal Scots as an example

Between 12th April 1915 to 22^nd of May 1915 the 1^st battalion RS lost 71 men in or around Sanctuary Wood (taken from Soldiers who died in the Great War)

And only 7 have a named headstone at Sanctuary Wood Cemetery

But 50 are on the Menin Gate with no known grave?

4 at Vlamertinghe Cemetery who died of wounds

2 at Bedford House Cemetery who died of wounds

2 at Boulogne Military Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Bailleul Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Klein-Virstraat Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Les Gonards Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Oosttaverne Wood Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Perth (China Wall) Cemetery who died of wounds

1 at Poperinghe Old Military Cemetery who died of wounds

So there is 50 from the 1^st Battalion Royal Scots on the Menin Gate (one of them my great uncle) who could be put on a simple inexpensive plaque near the entrance to the cemetery entrance.

(less than the cost of a couple of headstones – not much to ask is it? - with all the money that will be floating about for the centenary of WW1)

What a nice gesture that would be to gives those lads who fell an identity.

Instead of a nameless name on the Menin Gate.

(A lot of them have not even got their names added to the local Cenotaph where they were born and lived back home)

In memory of Private 9918 William Monaghan age 27 from Jarrow of 1^st Battalion Royal Scots who was one of the fallen at Sanctuary Wood, Zillebeke, Belgium on 9^th May 1915 and has no known grave.

His name is on the Menin Gate.

(he is not commemorated on the Cenotaph in his own home town where he was born and lived)

[Curlew1919]

50 who have no known grave at Sanctuary Wood Cemetery.

1^st Battalion Royal Scots at Sanctuary Wood from 12^th April 1915 to 22^nd May 1915.

(Sorry about the capitals – it was not done intentional – just my lack of clerical skills)

09/04/1915

The "Second Battle of Ypres" the 1^st Royal Scots had been defending the Kemmel area on the Salient’s southern flank and was subjected to almost constant shell-fire.
12/04/1915

Relieved and withdrew into close support at Sanctuary Wood.
JOHNSTON, EDWARD JOHN FARQUHARSON. CPT. POPERINGHE OLD MILITARY CEMETERY
17/04/1915
CONROY, JOHN. PRIVATE 3039. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HORNER, JOSEPH RICHARD. LCPL. 18320. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HUNTER, DANIEL. PRIVATE 2962. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
20/04/1915
DUNMORE, JOHN HENRY. PRIVATE 11166. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HANNING, JAMES. PRIVATE 9514. (DOW) BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY
21/04/1915
CHAPMAN, CECIL. PRIVATE 11273. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McMILLAN, JOHN. CPL. 4009. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
22/04/1915
HENDRY, THOMAS. PRIVATE 9674. (DOW) BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY
McGHEE, JOHN. PRIVATE 9978. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
REILLY, PATRICK. PRIVATE 12139. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SCOTT, DAVID COUSINS. PRIVATE 4045. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
23/04/1915
GRANT, ROBERT ALEXANDER. PRIVATE 10892. "C" Coy. (DOW) VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY
MILNE, WILLIAM. PRIVATE 9383. "C" Coy. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE) (SEE PANEL 11)
YOUNG, M. N. LT. "A" Coy. VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY
24/04/1915
HEPBURN, ANDREW CAMPBELL. CPL. 3945. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HUTCHISON, ALEXANDER. PRIVATE 16390. (DOW) OOSTTAVERNE WOOD
25/04/1915
COPELAND, WILLIAM ALAN. 2/LT. VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY
HISLOP, WILLIAM. PRIVATE 10761. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
26/04/1915
CONNELLY, JOHN. PRIVATE 13911. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
DUMMA, JAMES. PRIVATE 4377. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
ROBINSON, HAROLD. PRIVATE 9617. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
27/04/1915
HINEY, JOHN. PRIVATE 11120. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
28/04/1915
SMITH, WILLIAM THOMAS. LCPL. 10366. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
30/04/1915
GARDNER, JACK. LCPL. 16453.YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McGUIRE, JOHN. PRIVATE 2622. (DOW) BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY
YOUNG, JOHN. L/CPL 13868. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
03/05/1915
WADLOW, ALFRED. A/CPL. 11143. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
04/05/1915
CHARLES, GEORGE. PRIVATE 4242. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
KERR, THOMAS. PRIVATE 9829. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
LEASH, HAROLD THOMAS. PRIVATE 13888. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
MACHIN, RAYMOND. PRIVATE 10472. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
NEIL, WILLIAM. PRIVATE 13852. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
ROCK, PATRICK JOSEPH. PRIVATE 3703. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SHAW, ALONZA. PRIVATE 3908. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
TONNER, PETER. PRIVATE 13995. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
At 8pm the trenches were relieved by the 2nd Camerons and the Battalion withdrew from the small salient near Sanctuary Wood (by devious and unhealthy routes) to bivouac in the neighbourhood of Vlammertinghe (avoiding Ypres by a narrow margin)
05/05/1915
MARTIN, FRANCIS. PRIVATE 10143. (DOW) PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL)
Battalion enjoyed a much needed rest.

Draft of 90 men arrived and 15 men rejoined from hospital.
06/05/1915
TRINDER, GEORGE. PRIVATE 4306. (DOW) BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY
Bathing arranged for in pond adjoining a farm.

As the men had been without a bath for at least 28 days, and lacking a change of underclothes for six weeks, this was greatly appreciated.

By night 100 men employed as carrying party.

07/05/1915
McLOUGHLIN, JOHN. LCPL. 10184. (DOW) LES GONARDS CEMETERY
Battalion found party 300 strong (two relief's of 150 each) to dig and improve a line of defence through Ypres.

The party returned without casualties.
08/05/1915
Battalion ordered to form part of Composite Brigade with 2 Companies each.
2nd Brigade Royal Irish Fusiliers and 2nd Brigade Leinster Regiment.
Lt. Col. Callender to command composite Brigade with Captain H. E. Stanley-Murray as Staff Officer - Command of the battalion devolved upon Major H.F. Wingate with Cap. J. Burke as Acting Adjutant.

Composite dissolved at 6pm and the battalion proceeded with all speed to the Zouave Wood (Hooge) under command of Lt. Col. Callender.
The Germans attacked the area of woods south of the Menin Road after a horrendous artillery bombardment all day.
Heavy fighting near Hooge and North of Menin Road.
The 1st Royal Scots were sent up the line in support of 81st Brigade.
The 81st were in a small salient and the northern side was ' sagging '.
When the 1st Royal Scots arrived they found the unit to their left had been forced from their trenches and the Germans were in the process of occupying them.
The 1st Royal Scots fixed bayonets and charged, evicting them in disarray.
The 1st Royal Scots and their territorial companions in the 9th Royal Scots held these trenches, without losing a sap, until relieved on the night of 22nd/23rd May.
About 6pm orders were received to proceed to Sanctuary Wood.
The battalion arrived soon after dusk and were halted at Zouave Wood.
Officers went ahead and inspected trenches held by 2nd Gloucester's, and the battalion took over these trenches before dawn the following day.
Disposition of battalion - A & D Coys fire trenches, B & C Coys support trenches.

09/05/1915
FLORENCE, ADAM. PRIVATE 15254. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McDONALD, PATRICK. PRIVATE 15942. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
MONAGHAN, WILLIAM. PRIVATE 9918. From Jarrow YPRES (MENIN GATE)
NESS, RICHARD. PRIVATE 15246. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
Very heavy artillery bombardment.
By 2am the battalion was moved up to Sanctuary Wood.
They had heavy fighting in Sanctuary Wood and got badly cut up.
At dawn the order came to fall back and occupy the GHQ line some 2 miles West.

This was done.

The enemy's guns had the range of this line to a nicety, and put in a number of shells.
Line maintained.
Two hundred men out digging at night.
Casualties this day: Killed 4 men. Wounded Lt. G. M. V. Bidie 25 other ranks.
(At Sanctuary Wood Cemetery there are now 1,989 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in the cemetery. 1,353 of the burials are unidentified. Many graves, in all five plots, are identified in groups but not individually. There are 636 identified graves)

10/05/1915
EMSLIE, WILLIAM. PRIVATE 15255. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HOLSGROVE, THOMAS. PRIVATE 9753. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
A message came to the effect that all was not well on the left.
B Coy was ordered to move out to the left in support and to clear up the situation.
On arrival it was found the unit on our left had been driven from its trenches by the combined effect of shells and gas.
Seeing the enemy about to occupy the trench in some strength, Captain Farquharson advanced his company at the double and the enemy fled in disorder.
B Coy had 1 man wounded.
The company occupied the trench and proceeded to make the flank more secure.
Killed this day: - 2 men.
Wounded this day: - 13 men
(1 since died of wounds)
11/05/1915
BAIRD, JAMES. PRIVATE 10826. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
BOYCE, JOHN. PRIVATE 20622. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
MURRAY, THOMAS. PRIVATE 4429. (DOW) KLEIN-VIERSTRAAT CEMETERY
Trenches heavily shelled but with little result.
Trenches held A Coy on the right, D Coy in the centre, B Coy on the left, and C Coy in support.
The left company worked hard to consolidate there position which was overlooked by the enemy from the left.
12/05/1915
BLACK, THOMAS. PRIVATE 10674. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
CARR, JOHN. A/CPL. 10515. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY (REAL NAME ANDREW KENNEDY)
FARQUHARSON, L. S. CAPT. VLAMERTINGHE MILITARY CEMETERY
HENDERSON, THOMAS. LCPL. 10198. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
LAMONT, ROBERT. PRIVATE 10836. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
MARR, ARCHIBALD. PRIVATE 20319. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McDONALD, EDWARD. PRIVATE 18440. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McLEAN, DAVID AITKEN. PRIVATE 15075. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
McLENNAN, JOHN. PRIVATE 10942. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
MULROY, MARTIN ANDREW. PRIVATE 14169. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
PAINTIN, SHAYLER. SGT. 9784. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
WALLACE, THOMAS. CPL. 7349. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
WATSON, JOHN. PRIVATE 16413. YPRES (MENIN GATE)

14/05/1915
KNOX, RALPH. PRIVATE 9748. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
McGACHIE, JAMES. PRIVATE 11827. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
STARK, MARTIN. PRIVATE 2492. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
15/05/1915
CORMACK, KENNETH. PRIVATE 8659. (DOW) BAILLEUL COMMUNAL CEMETERY
EARLY, RICHARD. PRIVATE 9859. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
McNULTY, JAMES. PRIVATE 3385. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
18/05/1915
FENNICK, JAMES. PRIVATE 3614. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
19/05/1915
CLEVELAND, JOSEPH JOHN. PRIVATE 16363. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
20/05/1915
GIBSON, WALTER YOUNG. PRIVATE 3193. SANCTUARY WOOD CEMETERY
MARSHALL, MALCOLM. PRIVATE 9815. (DOW) YPRES (MENIN GATE)
22/05/1915
CALDER, PETER. PRIVATE 10526. YPRES (MENIN GATE)
The 1st Royal Scots relieved.

Edited 10 November , 2022 by Curlew1919

[BIFFO]

[Paul Chapman]

It's probably a bit late in the day, and then some, but I have just come across this 'topic' whilst looking for some info re. Royal Scots. Interestingly the subject of casualties recorded on the Menin Gate buried / commemorated in other localities - something I covered quite extensively / drew attention to in both my books on the memorial - is a subject often raised. The total, buried / commemorated elsewhere recorded on the Menin Gate alone, is in excess of 1,200. Hard to comprehend, but a reality which 'you either know about / acknowledge, or you don't.' The information often provided when notification / attention is drawn to an individual thus recorded 'in duplicate' is along the lines of the name will be removed when next the panel is re-engraved. In reality this is something of a misnomer, removal by re-engraving totally impractical. Imagine, by removal of even one name from a panel the 'space of question between names / lines' - (Why?) - that would be thus created. Imagine the removal by re-engraving the adjustment,, re-design, reformatting of layout that would be required should 1,200 plus names be removed. The cost alone would be prohibitive.

  

[Curlew1919]

I never mentioned removing names from any monuments to the missing? 

I just suggested putting a list of names of soldiers who were known to have died in the areas close to a particular military cemetery at that cemetery. 

Just a simple list either a plaque or a book costing next to nothing.

Then at least families would know that one of the graves in a particular military cemetery with just:

'A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR' 

'KNOWN UNTO GOD' 

Could be one of there own. 

You talk of costs.. What about the cost of a headstone with just 'A soldier of the Great War known unto God' on? Which only benefits some well to do Stone Mason business.. 

 

Edited 10 November , 2022 by Curlew1919