Dame Edith Cavell

[Arnie]

I was recently reminded of the execution of Nurse Edith Cavan. Whose shooting in 1915, although perfectly legal by the rules of war, gave the Allies a great deal of good propaganda.

Recently I saw an article about a German Grenadier Private Rammler who was detailed for the Nurse Caval's firing squad, but refused to load his rifle

When Miss Cavil's body was disinterred in a Brussels churchyard in May 1919, to be reburied with honour in the Norwich Cathedral, this man's body was found by her side.

The execution of both took place at dawn, October 12, 1915, in Brussels. Detailed to the firing squad, Rammler presumably did what he was told, until it came time to load his rifle. Then his conscience took over. Unable to go against it, he refused.

This did not save Miss Caval. She was shot anyway and so was her would-be protector.

I had previously seen account by the Belgian Padre who attended Nurse Cavil before and during her execution. He claims there was no such man as Rammler nor did the incident take place. However I have seen a Belgian Photograph showing the exhumation of Private Rammler and seen reports of his body being taken back to Germany and given an hero's burial.

Can anyone shed any further light on the subject.

[Landsturm]

I too have seen many photographs of body "belonging to soldier (some cases even some officer?) who refused to shoot nurse Edith Cavell"... did u notice that in your post you have used "Cavell", "Cavan" and "Cavil" . Ok... I haven`t gone through this yet, but try it if you find it any helpful.

"The Case of Nurse Edith Cavell" (also includes links to illustrations and texts).

[chris basey]

Always pleased to see mention of our Norfolk Heroine - Edith Cavell.

No, she was not made a 'Dame' and, in fact, received no honour from her own country. Seeing so many different spellings of her name in one post I suspect that as many pronunciations of her name will be in the minds of its readers.

Her brother has been quoted as saying 'Our name rhymes not with HELL, but with GRAVEL' which gives a petty good indication.

The 'German soldier' question is not mentioned in (perhaps) the most authorative book of her life by Rowland Ryder, published by Hamish Hamilton in 1975.

We are approaching the 89th anniversary of her execution on 12th October and, if you live near enough to Norwich, why not attend the service in her honour by her grave on Saturday 9th October 2004 at 10am.

[Tim Godden]

I was sitting watching TV here Sausage-side when an interesting article came on about Edith Cavell. I watched with interest as I come from Norfolk. Alas, I saw no mention of the cathedral, the memorial out side The Maid's Head, or even of the pub opposite. Still, good to see that things aren't forgotten on this side of the channel.

All the best,

Tim

[Guest Pete Wood]

Rammler is the invented name of a soldier from a story written by Reginald Berkeley. This story was turned into a film and Rammler became 'real.'

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031737/

Rammler is a myth.

[christine liava'a]

but Reginald Berkeley was real!

Captain Reginald Cheyne Berkeley Rifle Bde, Special Reserve

born London 1890

educated Bedford Modern School,

University of New Zealand

solicitor in Suva, Fiji

called to the New Zealand Bar 1912 and Middle Temple 1919.

served in the Rifle Brigade,(Special Reserve)

in both 11th Service Bn and 1st Bn marched to the Rhine.

wounded Military Cross

LG 14 November 1916

Brigade Major with Carey's Force at Amiens 1918.

GSO3 Fourth Army 1918, Brigade Major 174 Infantry Bde, 59th London Div and 2nd Infantry Bde, 1st Div.

Brigade Major 174 Infantry Brigade,

Demobilised 1919.

Joined Staff of League of Nations, 1919,

first as Editor of pamphlets,

later as Director of Propaganda until 1922

MP for Nottingham Central 1922-24.

m Gwendoline Judith Louise Cock

wrote play produced in 1920;

'The History of the Rifle Brigade in the Great War volume 1',

and “Dawn- A Biographical Novel of Edith Cavell”-1928 on which the 1928 film “Dawn” was based.

[Guest Pete Wood]

but Reginald Berkeley was real!

True. But, sadly, he persisted with his invention of Rammler - for monetary gain.

[michaeldr]

Christine said: “Dawn- A Biographical Novel of Edith Cavell”-1928 on which the 1928 film “Dawn” was based.

And Pete said: But, sadly, he persisted with his invention of Rammler - for monetary gain.

Steady on Tea Pots, Old Boy!

What exactly is the problem here?

Persistence with his invention

Or

Monetary gain?

Christine’s quote seems to make clear this was a ‘Novel’

Many poor so-and-sos make a living out of WWI

Some write plays, while others make Old Bill tank tea-pots

Let’s not get into that business of the Pot calling the Kettle, black eh?

As Old Abe used to say

“With malice toward none”

Michael D.R.

[Guest Pete Wood]

You're very wrong Michael.

The bit I quoted was where Christine had written "but Reginald Berkely was real." I then replied "True. But, sadly, he persisted with his invention of Rammler - for monetary gain."

When Berkely was questioned about Rammler, after the release of his book, he stuck by this story that Rammler existed. So my problem with Berkely is that he was lying for monetary gain.

I don't have a 'problem' with anyone doing anything as long as it's legal and people tell the truth.

Now I'm really not quite sure what you mean (or what you are suggesting) by anything else. Perhaps you'd better explain.....

[michaeldr]

after the release of his book, he stuck by this story that Rammler existed. So my problem with Berkely is that he was lying for monetary gain.

Sorry Pete, but you didn’t mention this before

If you’re right then certainly the author cannot have it both ways

If he maintained that this character was real then I wonder what he was implying when he called his work a novel?

Regards

Michael D.R

[Guest Pete Wood]

Berkeley's description varies with the released editions. The early books are described as a novel, written in conjunction with the forthcoming movie (link as above). After that, the description gets very blurry with every new release of the book and wanders towards, as Tom Morgan would say, factoids. Berkeley, and his publishers, release the book as a 'biography.'

When Berkeley came under scrutiny (mainly by the German press) about Rammler (and other parts of his story), he enlisted the help of George Bernard Shaw who, swayed by Berkeley's military record, gave Berkeley his whole-hearted, and public, support.

But it gets worse. Some of Rammler's personal items were later auctioned (including a written, signed account of the shooting); they came from the collection of Berkeley.

Many people have investigated the Rammler story. No one can find a soldier of this name (or who served in the required location) and no eye-witnesses back up Berkeley's claim(s).

[Brian Buck]

The Norwich & Waveney Branch of the WFA has a talk on Edith Cavell by Martin White on 05/04/05. We welcome visitors and guests. See http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/bra...rammes_list.php

Brian Buck Hon. Secretary

[Guest Pete Wood]

From the Times - the debate about Rammler:

[Guest Pete Wood]

Pt2

[Guest Pete Wood]

Pt3

[Guest Pete Wood]

Pt4

[Guest Pete Wood]

Last one

[michaeldr]

Pete,

Many thanks for all your trouble in supplying the further details

Your were certainly right about the author being persistent

If I read the above correctly Berkeley seems to have been relying on someone/thing called The Tir National &/or the Government Custodian of the Martyrs Memorial. Did anyone from these Belgian institutions come forward to contradict him?

Perhaps one of our Belgian ‘Pals’ can comment here?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[christine liava'a]

Some of Rammler's personal items were later auctioned (including a written, signed account of the shooting); they came from the collection of Berkeley.

When was the auction, RT?

Berkeley died in 1935

The auction may not have been his doing, but the family's or the estate's,

and they could have unwittingly given false? information

[Guest Pete Wood]

The auction must have been in the late 1930s, because all this came to light in the late 1980s (auction houses have a 50 year embargo on releasing information about who sold what).

So while Berkeley obviously didn't sell the item(s), they came from his collection, and came with a signed letter stating that this letter was Rammler's 'death-bed' account.

But, as the Pastor pointed out, no soldier refused to fire. The soldier, whose name was "something like Rammler" had been killed four weeks earlier than Edith Cavell. Berkeley knew this - and even admitted it, if you read the above - so why did he sign a page saying that this was Rammler's 'true' account.

It doesn't matter who sold it (or who bought it, though I'd love to know where that letter is today!). What matters is who authenticated Rammler's artifacts.

Berkeley insisted that his version of events was correct, even though not one other person (of the 250 present), including a man of God, backed up the story.

Very sad.

[chris basey]

On Saturday last Edith Cavell's grave was bathed in the Autumn sunshine when some fifty people gathered for the Annual Remembrance Service at Life's Green, Norwich Cathedral.

[chris basey]

And a view of the graveside Service

[robbie]

On Saturday last Edith Cavell's grave was bathed in the Autumn sunshine when some fifty people gathered for the Annual Remembrance Service at Life's Green, Norwich Cathedral.

Chris,

Thank you. I remember reading (as a teenager) a very much santized version of Edith Cavell's work. By santized I mean there was no reference at all to her untimely death.

Robbie

[Guest Lily M.]

To all of you who have been troubled over the fact whether or not a private Rammler existed and refused to shoot Nurse Cavell, I can answer that according to official German and even British reports Rammler did not exist.

Reginald Berkeley however, couldn't have known that when he wrote the script for Dawn (1928), since even the British Government at that time wasn't exactly sure of the circumstances under which Edith Cavell had died. He honestly believed that Rammler had existed and he even saw him as a metaphor of all people being victims of the war machinerie. After all, Rammler, as a German soldier and therefore being the enemy, showed some humanity in refusing to shoot a perfectly honest woman. The Dawn controversy started in February 1928 and from that moment on, eyewitnesses stepped forward confessing that there had been no such man as Rammler. Berkeley must have understood this during February 1928, but only after he wrote the script for Dawn.

Berkeley deserves some credit, because by adding Rammler to the story, he made of Dawn an anti-war film.