Stuggs Posted 27 December , 2013 Share Posted 27 December , 2013 I am trying to find out the Brigade and Divisional attachments of a number of artillery units in the RHA, RFA and RGA, but have drawn a blank finding out any information. Is there a site where I can find this info out please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 27 December , 2013 Admin Share Posted 27 December , 2013 Hi Stuggs The Long Long Trail website provides an overview. For the Western Front from Dec 1916 to Dec 1917, you can download a full Order of Battle from TNA for £3.36. If you provide details of hte units you are after then hoopefully the RA experts here can help. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuggs Posted 27 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2013 Glen Thanks for the speedy reply. My problem seems to be that I don't understand the artillery formations or assignments in the same way I do the infantry and I think I may be confusing myself. I have the following units I am looking for the Brigade and Divisional info on if anyone can help. 7th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 14th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 17th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 17th (Reserve) Bty., Royal Field Artillery 29th (Reserve) Bty, Royal Field Artillery 30th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 33rd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 37th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 38th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 48th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 88th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 72nd Bde.,Royal Field Artillery 86th Bgde,Royal Field Artillery 113th. Battery, Royal Field Artillery114th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 119th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 121st Bde., Royal Field Artillery 147th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 162nd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 169th Bde. Royal Field Artillery 180th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 186 Bde., Royal Field Artillery 210th Bde, Royal Field Artillery 242nd (South Midland) Bde., Royal Field Artillery 245th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 265th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 275th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 282nd Brigade, Royal Field Artillery 307th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 330 Bde., Royal Field Artillery 3rd Div. Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 8th Div. Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 20th Div. Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 29th Div. Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 3rd Base Remount Depot, Royal Field Artillery 2nd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 9th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery 14th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 29th Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery 32nd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 38th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 119th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 143rd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 190th Seige Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 200th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 218th Siege Bty, Royal Garrison Artillery 230th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 259th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 261st Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 265th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 281st Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 303rd Siege Bty, Royal Garrison Artillery 354th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 18th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 38th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 152nd Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 154th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 1st Trench Mortar Battery, Royal Field Artillery 3rd Trench Mortar Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 12th Trench Mortar, Royal Garrison Artillery33rd Trench Mortar Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery Royal Garrison Artillery (2nd Reserve Bde) 47th Coy., Royal Garrison Artillery Royal Garrison Artillery (Provisional Battery) I am assuming that where it says (XX)Bde., that unit served with that particular Army Brigade, but I would like to clarify this before continuing any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 27 December , 2013 Admin Share Posted 27 December , 2013 I'm no expert but basically the RA was structured along the lines of several individual guns made up a Battery and several Batteries made a Brigade. Some Brigades were under hte command of divisions while others were managed at Army level. Trencn mortar batteries and Divisional Ammuniction Columns (DAC) were under the control of divisions with the number of a TMB being the Infantry Brigade they were attached to and the DAC number matching the division. Finally, I have re-arranged your list to make it easier to read 'A' Bty., 114th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 307th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 29th Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery 9th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery (2nd Reserve Bde) 119th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 8th Division Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 265th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 14th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 379th Bty., 169th Army Bde. Royal Field Artillery 282nd Brigade, Royal Field Artillery 'Y' Bty., 12th Trench Mortar, Royal Garrison Artillery 143rd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'A' Bty., 180th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 38th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 242nd (South Midland) Bde., Royal Field Artillery 32nd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'C' Bty., 162nd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 36th Bty., 33rd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 'A' Bty., 242nd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 218th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery 303rd Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery 33rd Trench Mortar Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'A' Bty., 186 Bde., Royal Field Artillery 354th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 3rd Div. Ammuntion Column, Royal Field Artillery 'A' Bty., 119th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 2nd Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 152nd Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 10th Bty., 147th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 113th. Battery, Royal Field Artillery 29th Division Ammunition Col., Royal Field Artillery 'B' Bty., 265th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 200th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 38th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 17th Reserve Bty., Royal Field Artillery 'B' Bty., 48th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 72nd Bty., 38th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 'X' 3rd Trench Mortar Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'D' Bty., 275th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 18th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'D' Bty., 48th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 3rd Base Remount Depot, Royal Field Artillery 154th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 26th Bty., 17th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 259th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 47th Coy., Royal Garrison Artillery 'B' Bty., 121st Bde., Royal Field Artillery 20th Div. Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery 'Y' Bty., 7th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 190th Seige Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 281st Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 261st Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 230th Siege Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'B' Bty., 245th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 154th Heavy Bty., Royal Garrison Artillery 'D' Bty., 72nd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 88th Bty., 14th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 389th Bty., 37th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 'A' Bty., 210th Bde, Royal Field Artillery 'A' Bty., 86th Bgde, Royal Field Artillery 'D' Bty., 282nd Bde., Royal Field Artillery 36 Bty., 33rd Bde., Royal Field Artillery Royal Garrison Artillery (Provisional Battery) 'A' Bty., 330 Bde., Royal Field Artillery 29th (Reserve) Battery, Royal Field Artillery 129th Bty., 30 Bde., Royal Field Artillery 88th Bde., Royal Field Artillery 'E' Bty., 1st Trench Mortar Battery, Royal Field Artillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 27 December , 2013 Share Posted 27 December , 2013 Stuggs, I see the list has been sorted now, which you will find a lot easier to untangle. XX Brigade will be the same as 20th Brigade if you are looking at the listings in LLT. 3rd Base Remount Depot is not Artillery, but under the Remount section of the Army Service Corps. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 27 December , 2013 Share Posted 27 December , 2013 In Aug 1914 all artillery in the BEF was under command of a division, RHA to the Cav division, RFA and RGA heavy batteries to infantry divisions. However, in WW1 C&C arrangements were fairly simple so notions of 'in support' and 'in direct support' did not emerge (I'd be happy to be corrected on that point). Basically the artillery of a division was under command or the Commander RA on behalf of the divisional commander, there does nort seem to have been any formal C&C relationship between RFA & RFA bdes with cav & inf bdes or batteries with infantry battalions as there was in WW2 and later. However, after 1914 it started to get a bit more complicated, particularly with the expansion of the RGA. In 1916 RFA underwent a major reorg with div artys being reduced to two RFA bdes, with other RFA bdes under Army command and assigned to divisions as necesaary. Of course even before this the RFA of divisions in reserve were assigned to support divisions in the front. Mid-war Corps Commander RA were introduced to command artillery at the corps level. Generally as the RGA expanded most batteries (and later Groups & Bdes) were under Army command and assigned to corps as necessary. This changed somewhat when the Corps Commander RA were introduced and when Corps Heavy Artillery Comds appeared. Of course in battles such as Messines in 1917 entire divisional artilleries were placed under temporary command of another corps. In 1918 there was a real revolution in miltary affairs when 'control' was recognised as being different to 'command' - the Corps CBO, a mere Lt Col, was given excutive control of batteries and brigades for CB purposes. This was a seminal event in 20th Century military thinking, although some armies still haven't got there! Of course just to add to the confusion Army HQs did not have an artillery commander, the MGRA being a staff officer. Arty C&C is far too complicated for ordinary mortals, infantryment, etc to understand. In WW2 it got even more complicated. However the key insight was that firepower was not the same as fire units because of firepower mobility, although this was still somewhat limited in WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 27 December , 2013 Share Posted 27 December , 2013 Hello Stuggs For Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery your best source is probably Order of Battle of Divisions by Major A F Becke, a series of five volumes (Parts 1, 2A, 2B, 3a&3B, and 4) produced as an addition to the Official History series. They are not available online as far as I know but you may be able to find a set in Birmingham City Library, or they could get copies foryou via the inter-library loan service. Also for these, and for the Royal Garrison Artillery, there are files at the National Archives at Kew in filews WO95/5467, 5468, 5469 and 5494 at the end of the War Diaries class. The first three of these deal with France and Belgium, the last with artillery units outside the divisional structure. Files WO95/5470 onwards deal with other theatres of the war. I don't think these are available online yet although WO95/5468 is probably the one mentioned by Glen in post #2, so a visit to London may be necessary. It is possible, however, that at least some of them may be available online over the next five years as the centenaries roll along. Good hunting! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 27 December , 2013 Share Posted 27 December , 2013 If it helps 72nd Bde RFA was with 15th Scottish Division up till 1/12/17 when it became "Army Brigade" and left the division. From the div history: D /73 joined and became D/72 (How) D/73 to 73rd and became D73 (22/5/16) RA reorganised 22/5/16 and completed June 7-8 to 3 4-gun 18pdrs and one 4-gun 4.5 Howitzer battery per brigade. Again reorganised on 1/12/16 yo 3 6-gun 18pdr and one 4.5 howitzer bty per brigade. Hope this is of use James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 "reorganised 22/5/16 and completed June 7-8 to 3 4-gun 18pdrs and one 4-gun 4.5 Howitzer battery per brigade Again reorganised on 1/12/16 yo 3 6-gun 18pdr and one 4.5 howitzer bty per brigade." Not forgetting that even on the W Front this reorganisation was never completed. On 11/1118 there were still RFA bdes with 100% 18-pr, eg 179, 158, 14, 158, 169, 96 Bde with 4x6 18pr, and 93, 26 with 3x6 18pr. Also 16 RHA had 3x6 18pr, but 14 & 15 RHA was on the normal RFA org and 5 RHA had 4x6 18pr, and of course 3, 4 & 7 RHA had 13pr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 Sir Martin Farndale's History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery: Western Front 1914-18 and The Forgotten Fronts and the Home Base both have Annexes giving the order of battle at the end of the war, and the main text has extracts at other periods. There are some errors in the Annexes (e.g. 126 Bde RFA is shown in two places with different compositions) and the indexes of RA units are frankly appalling to read, but the books themselves may be easier to find in larger libraries. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 A few leads for you based on Becke, Order of Battles (I), Regular Divisions : 113th Battery RFA served with 1st Guards brigade ( 1st Coldstream Guards, 1st Black Watch, 1st Scots Guards) in the 1st Infantry Division until the Guards Brigade transferred to the newly formed Guards Division in August 1915 XXX (Heavy) Brigade RFA served with 9th Brigade of the 3rd Division until 14/5/16 when it was broken up. VII Brigade RHA served 1st Cavalry Division throughout the war. XXXVII Brigade RFA served with 4th division from start of war until transferred to 7th Division in Nov 1914, then to 8th Division May 1915 XXXVIII Brigade RFA served with 6th Division until it became an Army Field Artillery Brigade 14/1/17 Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 113th Battery RFA served with 1st Guards brigade ( 1st Coldstream Guards, 1st Black Watch, 1st Scots Guards) in the 1st Infantry Division until the Guards Brigade transferred to the newly formed Guards Division in August 1915 XXX (Heavy) Brigade RFA served with 9th Brigade of the 3rd Division until 14/5/16 when it was broken up. 113 Battery was part of XXV Brigade RFA, 1st Division Artillery, throughout the war. Individual RFA batteries never formed part of any infantry brigade. XXX Brigade RFA was (originally) a howitzer brigade, not a heavy brigade. The latter designation only applied to RGA which after Feb 1915 did not form part of divisions, except occasionally as temporary attachments. Likewise, it never formed part of 9th Infanry Brigade. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Wilcock Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 The information you are after and the degree of detail will depend why you are looking? What are you going to use the info for? Being completely tangled up in RFA history just of one Brigade, we have found that the Unit War Diary is needed to find out who was where - and when one Brigade is split with one Battery in one place and another elsewhere - this required a supplement to the war diary. What I would like is to know where the guns were positioned. Then when one visited or is reading diaries one could picture exactly where the guns were. No map reference! As far as I can see the War Diary reports the digging of a new gun position but doesnt say where it is. Was there any record of the gun positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuggs Posted 28 December , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2013 The info is for the database of Smethwick Great War casualties I have been compiling. I have nearly all of the infantry casualties recorded with Brigade and Divisional information and the artillery casualties were next on the list. The units I have posted have one or more man from Smethwick who served and fell. Thank you all for your help though. It is still no clearer to me but I will follow the advice and hope I can work it out. Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 28 December , 2013 Share Posted 28 December , 2013 113 Battery was part of XXV Brigade RFA, 1st Division Artillery, throughout the war. Individual RFA batteries never formed part of any infantry brigade. XXX Brigade RFA was (originally) a howitzer brigade, not a heavy brigade. The latter designation only applied to RGA which after Feb 1915 did not form part of divisions, except occasionally as temporary attachments. Likewise, it never formed part of 9th Infanry Brigade. Ron Thanks Ron Apologies for the errors - trying to understand Becke is not that easy I have discovered! Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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