Loos Burials 14 March 2014

[MelPack]

I have checked the Board's index and this casualty of the Battle of Loos appears to have passed under the radar:

Article published in Fife Today on 17 July 2013

The Ministry of Defence are hoping to trace the family of a WW1 soldier from Leven who was killed during a major battle on the Western Front in 1915.

The remains of Private William McAleer from the 7th Battalion The Royal Scottish Fusiliers, were discovered near Lens in northern France three years ago during construction work.

It is hoped the soldier’s relatives can be traced and given the chance to take part in his re-interment and memorial service.

He was killed in action on September 26, 1915 during the Battle of Loos, a major 
offensive that marked Britain’s first use of poison gas in the war.

Around 140 tons of chlorine gas was released as part of the attack, but in some places the gas was blown back onto British trenches.

Many soldiers removed their gasmasks as they were unable to see or breathe properly with them on.

Fifty thousand British and Indian troops were killed or injured in the battle, along with 20,000 Germans.

If you have information that could help trace Private McAleer’s family, please contact Lynne Gammond on 03067 701322 or lynne.gammond453@mod.uk.

http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/local-headlines/family-of-ww1-soldier-sought-1-3004198

CWGC entry: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/734585/McALEER,%20WILLIAM

I assume that Pte McAleer's remains were found with personal artefacts that enabled the identification to be established.

The 7th Battalion had 113 fatalities on the same day.

Mel

[Seadog]

Missed no doubt Mel because MOD do not apparently issue formal press releases regarding such finds. With the greatest respect how many people have access to Fife Today which I assume is a newspaper. It also sounds like the MOD are having a bit of a "speed up" as regards the discovered fallen mind you this man was found three years ago and no doubt it will be four years before he receives a proper dignified burial in a war cemetery..

Norman

[David Tattersfield]

Private McAleer is to be buried at Loos British Cemetery (n.b. not Dud Corner Cemetery) along with 19 other soldiers on 14 March 2014.

Details of the ceremony are detailed here:

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/news/newsflash/3538-reburial-of-private-william-mcaleer-and-19-unknown-british-soldiers-of-the-first-world-war-at-loos-british-cemetery.html

David

[PBI]

Are there any other indications as to the Units that the unknown 19 served with ?,i will be in the area that day and will be paying my respects.

[MelPack]

Phil

The nineteen additional to Pte. McAleer consist of:

• 6 Royal Scots Fusiliers
• 2 Cameron Highlanders
• 1 Northumberland Fusiliers
• 1 Yorks & Lancs
• 9 without any Regimental attribution

All twenty shared a communal grave along with 30 German soldiers.

The CWGC is in the process of updating its website with the details.

I have amended the title of the thread in anticipation of further contributions about the reburials.

Mel

[Seadog]

Thanks Mel that is very interesting, do you know where these soldiers were found and when plus what is the situation regarding the German remains?

Norman

Added Just read the updated CWGC notice and the place of discovery is mentioned but not when.they were found

CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2014/3/reinterment-at-loos.aspx

[MelPack]

Norman

From what I understand the remains were found in October 2010 in a field behind the Vendin Le Viel Crematorium, Rue Leon Droux, Lens. The VDK are responsible for the remains of the German soldiers.

There are a couple of interesting aspects to this. To the best of my recall, the last occasion that a discovery of mixed British and German dead were found in such numbers was in the 1980s and they were reinterred in a single grave in a CWGC cemetery with a memorial block stone. The other aspect is that this sounds very much like the classic 50 bodies German burial pit a la Fromelles.

It looks as if the remains may have been uncovered during the preliminary works for the construction of a new prison:

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/la-construction-de-la-prison-de-vendin-devrait-etre-jna35b0n815329

All in all, a remarkable discovery!

Mel

[Seadog]

Thanks again for the info Mel it is indeed a remarkable story made even more so because as far as I am aware this is the first time that the news has been put in the public domain here in the UK. I may of course be mistaken in my assumption but if not then how the heck was this kept secret for so long as I cannot recall seeing any mention whatsoever in the UK media. This just reinforces my view that the MOD are deliberately keeping such finds from the public for whatever reason we can only guess but at worse could be so that instead of properly investigating the finds these can be held for as in this case four years and then buried as “Unknowns” as the majority of these men will be.

Just a couple of points about the CWGC announcement, they seem to have forgotten to specify the actual war cemetery on the main page concerning the burials plus the finding of the Germans is described as "In close proximity" not with the British. Perhaps forum members will be able to update us on the situation pertaining to the German finds.

Regards

Norman

[MelPack]

Norman

David's link at #3 confirms the cemetery as the Loos British cemetery and even provides the plot, row and grave numbers to be used.

I cannot explain the phraseology used by the CWGC but it may signify nothing more than the British dead being layered separately from the German dead in the same burial pit.

I am not surprised there has been no media coverage of this particular find in this country for the simple reason that it slipped the net for the local media (the normal chain is precisely that a story breaks in the locality which may or may not be picked up in the UK).

Having searched the local media for stories, it is more than apparent that the prison project has encountered a great deal of resistance in the locality including from those that have a keen interest in battle site archaeology - Choissy Wood is directly to the rear of the crematorium. The project has been beset with problems including the clearance of an enormous amount of ordnance. I think that this may simply be a case of the developers keeping a tight lid on any information that would lend creedence to those in opposition. ( I would recommend your bumping Vendin Le Viel Crematorium, Rue Leon Droux, Lens into googlemaps and then looking at the satellite version - the unploughed field adjacent to the crematorium has a clearly moon crater littered landscape.

As for secrecy for some ulterior purpose, I can only point you to the statement of position made by the junior minister that you have already posted:

Following contact with my local MP I have received today the response sent to her by Mark Francois, Minister of State for the Armed Forces. The following are verbatim extracts from the letter.

It is not MOD policy to issue a press release announcing the discovery of human remains on battlefields, aircraft crash sites or shipwrecks. The only media releases relate to appeals in tracing family members of the deceased.

I have no idea what the reasoning is behind that policy but I doubt that it is for any nefarious purpose whatsoever. I would certainly like to see a much greater degree of disclosure of information about finds such as these when they are made. That, however, requires a change of policy that can only be implemented at a ministerial level and that is precisely why I have advocated that the interested groups should engage with the MoD to establish the appropriate protocols for dealing with historic remains from WW1 with a commensurate commitment to funding.

Mel

[BelgianExile]

Now my french is not fantastique by a long stretch, but reading the article it looks like the 'l'Institut national de recherches archéologiques préventives' (National Institute for Preventive Archaeological Research) took a pass on the site as it was too dangerous for their teams, and went straight to 'pyrotechnic cleanup' which doesn't sound very forensic to me!

I wonder what, or who, they've missed.

[Seadog]

Email sent to Lord Faulkner, Chairman, War Heritage Group

Copied to: Peter Barton & Peter Doyle

Discovery of 20 British Soldiers

I am sure that you will be aware of the latest announcement from the CWGC regarding the burial of 20 sets of British soldier’s remains taking place at Loos British Cemetery in March 2014. These soldiers plus 30 Germans were found in October 2010 and one British soldier has been identified by name. I relate this as yet another glaring example of the total reluctance of the MOD to place the news of such finds into the public domain which as I have said before is a travesty and completely unacceptable in these days of open government and transparency, no such news has been forthcoming about this discovery.

Please make whatever efforts you and your Group can to ensure that proper press releases are made so that the British public is fully aware of those occasions when our fellow countrymen return to us from the mud of the battlefield. I have already said that if the MOD is adamant that they will not undertake this task then surely a form of words can be agreed with the CWGC as custodians of the remains and the news of the discoveries can be then expedited through both their web site and by press release. This quite ludicrous situation has gone on long enough and the discovery referred to in this mail is a prime example of the present situation.

Norman

[Seadog]

NOT FORGOTTEN ON THIS DAY THE 14th MARCH 2014

LEST WE FORGET

Norman

[J Banning]

BBC News piece: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-26568666

Thee have also been some pictures on Twitter this morning of the ceremony.

[Tom Lang]

Norman,

Did you get a response to your email?

Tom.

[Seadog]

Yes Tom Lord Faulkner responded on the 10th February that he has written to the Minister on the subject of my email plus my MP has also responded likewise. I now await the official replies.

Loos - The rehearsal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580305/Soldiers-rehearse-fog-ahead-reburial-ceremony-bodies-20-British-WWI-soldiers-construction-site-France.html

Loos - The ceremony (Including video)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580854/Soldiers-died-Battle-Loos-buried-century-later.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Norman

[Seadog]

Loos

The ceremony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWp1MXurrSs

Norman

[gilles]

Très belle cérémonie ce matin à Loos

gilles Loos grande guerre

[Seadog]

Merci, il avait l'air très digne

Cordialement

Norman

[erikwithak]

It was an honor to have been there, hope this will happen again soon, until all missing in action men will be found and rejoined with their brothers in arms. Respect

[NigelS]

Article published in Fife Today on 17 July 2013

....He was killed in action on September 26, 1915 during the Battle of Loos, a major 
offensive that marked Britain’s first use of poison gas in the war.

Around 140 tons of chlorine gas was released as part of the attack, but in some places the gas was blown back onto British trenches.

Many soldiers removed their gasmasks as they were unable to see or breathe properly with them on.....

A letter in today's Daily Telegraph (18th March) indicates that the gassing of British infantry at Loos may not have just been down to a change in the wind direction

The death of British soldiers from our poison gas

SIR – Your report of the Battle of Loos during the First World War, in which Private William McAleer was killed, states, as do other accounts, that a change of wind direction was responsible for blowing the poison gas back towards the British lines, so killing many soldiers.

I have transcribed a report of the battle, written at the time by my husband’s great uncle, who fought at Loos. He describes how the Scottish infantry rushed from their trenches and “reached the German line so quickly that many died from the effects of our own gas”. He tells of seeing “hundreds of dead Scotch [sic] infantry”, many killed by gas in the German trenches.

I wonder whether the accepted version, blaming a change in the wind, or Great-Uncle Henry’s report is correct.

Penny Clive

Swanmore, Hampshire

(Click & scroll down for original letter)

NigelS

[Neil Mackenzie]

When the casualties from Pheasant Wood were originally buried, I believe that the Germans removed all identity discs and other personal objects for sending back to their families through the International Red Cross. Presumably they would have done the same in this case. I wonder if the MoD have checked out those records.

Neil