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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Intriguing Photograph


janicecasita

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3229328e-80a9-4549-8b6d-9aabd854adc6.jpgThis photograph is of my maternal great uncle Ernest Conrad Lower born in 1899/1900. Having decided not to come back to the forum until the New Year I found this photograph and thought I would ask for some help please. My aunt says that he was too young to serve in the Great War and was in the police (which he was in later life). I think the stirrups/possible jodhpurs could suggest both, but I find the insignia on his left sleeve rather intriguing. Can anybody help me interpret the uniform/insignia this please?

Many thanks, Janice

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Janice

Lower emblem is the crossed rifles of a marksman. Upper one similar to a Warrant Officer (senior NCO)but smaller than I would expect.

Something of a metal shoulder flash which will denote Battalion etc.but too indistinct.

There is a Medal Card for a Sapper in the Engineers but only with Ernest as a forename.

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Hello,

There is an mic for a Conrad Lower (51122) Middlesex Regiment with an X through the Victory/BWM roll and no dates. The back of the card has "Com Met Police force Roll of PC's ent to medals 12/01/21"

Mick.

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Just a thought, but could the laurel leaf badge be the insignia of a lewis or machine gunner or if RA be gun layer ?, not sure where this badge would be worn though,

regards,

John.

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Out of interest, if he was a rifleman or gunner why would he be wearing johdpurs and spurs, Is he not dressed more like a driver?

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Out of interest, if he was a rifleman or gunner why would he be wearing johdpurs and spurs, Is he not dressed more like a driver?

I think some cavalry did have Lewis guns and unlike some other countries did use rifles rather than carbines - so presumably had marksmen
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Hello Janice,

I found my way here but I can be of no help. All I can say is that it is a great Photo.

Martin

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I think some cavalry did have Lewis guns and unlike some other countries did use rifles rather than carbines - so presumably had marksmen

Thanks Centurion.

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This photograph is of my maternal great uncle Ernest Conrad Lower born in 1899/1900. Can anybody help me interpret the uniform/insignia this please?

Many thanks, Janice

Janice,

Perhaps you can see what lettering is shown within the ' Laurel Leaf ' badge on his lower left arm, as the ' Laurel Leaf ' was used for various Trade and Qualification badges.

If within the Laurel Leaf, there is a :-

MG - Machine Gunner 1st Class

LG - Lewis Gunner 1st Class

HG - Hotchkiss Gunner 1st Class

L - Gunlayer

R - Range Takers and Range and Position Finders

Regards,

LF

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Thank you all for your help. I do not think it was a "typo" it was almost certainly a "senior moment". I found the Medal Index Cards on Ancestry and did wonder if the one referring to the Met Police was him as he was a policeman in later life, saved three that were nearest to him for further analysis and cannot find them on my computer at the moment (another senior moment I expect). I did wonder if he was a driver (I am learning so much from the posts on the forum) but my aunt was so insistent that he was too young to serve that I was unsure whether it was an army or a military uniform. You have answered my query – Thank you and I will do further investigation in the New Year (my cousin has the original photograph and I will ask her to inspect it for the points that you have raised).


I do enjoy reading the posts so much and I really do learn a lot from them. Just last week I was researching Jacob Lower and noticed SWB on his MIC and immediately knew this referred to Silver War Badge from the forum and found him in the roll on Ancestry!


Once again, thank you all so much for your help and wish you all Merry Christmas and happy New Year.


Janice

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He might have umm "adjusted" his age.

Plenty of others seem to have done it, so its a possable

Grant

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  • 1 month later...

I am very sorry but I cannot remember how to upload photographs to the forum – could someone help me please?

Hello Everyone,

Happy New Year to you all!

I have some further information on my great-uncle and would be extremely grateful for your help, yet again. I have now discovered that he did serve with the Metropolitan police but his service did not start until 1920. He was born on 3rd October 1899, and baptised Conrad Ernest Lower so it does look possible that the MIC for the Middlesex Regiment number 51122 could be him – it is such a shame that no other records exist for him, like so many others. He was just 21 days younger than my grandfather, so my aunt must have been wrong about him being too young to serve in the Great War.

My cousin has sent me some more photographs which I am attaching. The first one is a higher resolution copy of the original photograph. The second is one of him with an army colleague – looking at the photograph, my cousin is not sure whether this is him. I think it may be with the cap making his head look more square but of course the uniform does not have any insignia on the left sleeve, so it could be a photograph of two of his colleagues or taken before he wore the insignia. The third one is a close-up of the insignia on his left sleeve and the fourth one is of his cap badge (presumably from the photograph with his army colleague). I would be very grateful for your ideas on these photographs.

I promised myself (and the family) that I would continue researching my grandfather in February, and I intend reading both The London Scottish and The Fifty Sixth Division: 1914-1918 in greater detail so that I can try and track his movements in France from January 1918. After that, I will look at his first (underage) engagement with the Middlesex Regiment. This will keep me busy for quite a while so I will try not to disturb you too much, but I am sure I will need some more help from you in the future. I read the first chapter of Jeremy Paxman’s Great Britain’s Great War last night and found it very enjoyable reading so I am looking forward to the programme starting next week.

Best wishes,

Janice

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Janice,

In the box below this one you may see a button in the bottom right corner which says "More Reply Options" if you mouse your arrow over it and click it will open another box which lets you choose files to upload.

It is slightly fussy over how big each picture can be, hope this helps

How strange, I also read the same Chapter last night, Got the book for Christmas.

Martin

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Go to reply and click 'more reply options' go to bottom left of page and click on 'choose files'

this should open your pictures, click on the one you want and then click 'open' when the file number appears click add to post.

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The two photos of him in uniform were too big apparently (although I managed to attach the last one okay). I am attaching the details of the sleeve insignia and the cap

badge, but I do not think they are very good clear images. I will try to do something with the other two photographs and come back to you if I manage anything.

Best wishes,

post-103048-0-96723800-1390504063_thumb.

post-103048-0-39116400-1390504097_thumb.

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the sleeve insignia

Janice,

The sleeve badge ' LG ' within a wreath ( photo attached ) looks to be the Qualification Badge for a Lewis Gunner 1st Class, which was introduced by Army Order 80, in March 1917.

Regards,

LF

post-63666-0-06145700-1390506954_thumb.j

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The two photos of him in uniform were too big apparently (although I managed to attach the last one okay). I am attaching the details of the sleeve insignia and the cap
badge, but I do not think they are very good clear images. I will try to do something with the other two photographs and come back to you if I manage anything.
Best wishes,

Left photo, Lewis Gunners skill-at-arms badge over his marksmans badge, right photo cap badge of the Middlesex Regiment.

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The photographs are in kilobytes and I have just converted the size of the high resolution photograph into megabytes and it is 6.1 MB. My cousin did a fantastic job of increasing the resolution for me, but in doing so has made these two photographs too large for the forum.


Many apologies, I will bear this in mind if I ever need to post photographs again. If you have any ideas on the cap badge and the insignia I would be grateful to hear of them.


Best wishes,


Janice

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Thank you both so much. I recognise the LG from the high resolution photograph now that you have shown it to me so my cousin did a very good job for me there! I would never have known that it was a Middlesex cap badge but this does tie-in with the MIC for Conrad Lower especially as it does mention Com Met Pol– roll of PC's entered onto Medals 12/02/1921and he started his service with the Met in 1920.

Thank you all very much. I can see that when I have eventually finished work on my grandfather I will have to start researching my great uncle!

Thanks again,

Janice

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