German cavalry carbines

[Steven Broomfield]

Dear All, can someone confirm for me that German cavalry in 1914 were equipped with carbines rather than rifles?

Extra questions: what was the calibre (7.62?), and what would an effective range have been in a fire fight?

Finally, did the German Army put as much emphasis on musketry in their cavalry as the British did in theirs?

So many questions ... thanks in advance; it's for a talk I'm putting together for January, details to be posted on the Forum in due course.

[Guest]

Not sure if the answer's in here, but might be useful to you? Click

[4thGordons]

The Germans, like most armies at the time (the exceptions being the UK and USA with their intermediate length SMLE and M1903) had retained an Infantry rifle and a carbine. These were the Gew 98 and the Kar 98 (although there were large numbers of the earlier Gew 88 / Kar 88 still in service). All of these weapons are 7.92mm Mauser calibre (often referred to as 8mm mauser). In general, carrbine length arms tend to be thought of a less accurate than full length rifles but the SMLE etc showed that this was much exaggerated and the fact that by WWII the standard German rifle was the 98k would suggest that this length would be perfectly adequate over all ranges at which significant engagements were likely to occur.

I have no idea about marksmanship training within the cavalry arm, sorry.

I can supply pics of the various types if they would be useful

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks both.

Chris - no need for pics: the reference to german cavalry arms is only a passing one, but I don't want to look even more of a lemon than usual.

Skippy - as ever, thanks for the link.

[Stoppage Drill]

Yes, the Kar98AZ, which figures in the link Skippy posted. I believe sights were calibrated to 2000m, same as the G98, but as to what is an "effective" range . . . . NATO currently requires a striking force of 80 joules (or 58 foot pounds) to be treated as "effective" in causing incapacitation, and the point on the graph (where the axes are residual energy and range) is the point at which 80 joules intersects with range, if that gives you any idea. My point is, that if you can manage to hit a human target five times out of ten, and put him out of action, that is an "effective" range. The 7.62 NATO round, which has very similar ballistic properties as the 7.92 Mauser still has sufficient residual energy (80 joules) at 2000m and a little bit beyond. So long as you can hit your target at that range then it's "effective". But hang on . . . even if you can't hit your target, you can still make him go to ground if he is hearing bullets whizz past his ears, and scoring lucky local hits, and seeing bullets knock lumps out of the landscape all around him, so you might say that this is still "effective."

Really, the practical "effective" range of a WW1 rifle, or one of the better carbines (i.e I am ruling out things like the Berthier) is round about 1000m. At this range a trained soldier might be expected to hit a human target, given reasonably good conditions.

Calibre of the AZ was exactly the same as the G98, viz. 7.92 x 57 mm. An earlier rifle, the 1888 Commission rifle had also been designated 7.92, but the ammunition for the G98 had a slightly larger bullet diameter. Shooting the earlier cartridge from the later guns was OK, but to shoot the later cartridge through the earlier bore was potentially dangerous. The Germans designated the round "I" initially, (Infanterie) but used the character form which looked like "J" as the two letters are interchangeable in the German language. When a pointed (spitzer) bullet was introduced, it was designated "JS" - Infanterie Spitzer - and this is still in use today. When the round became popular in the US after the war, the American organisation SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institution) decided to designate the round as 8mm, and today the round, which is still fairly popular as a hunting cartridge is known to the world as "8mm Mauser" or "8mm JS".

As to the standard of marksmanship training of German cavalry, sorry, I cannot help, but given the standards and organisation of the German Army I would expect it to have been good.

However, as an interesting aside, it is worth mentioning that the high marksmanship standards of British cavalry in 1914 were largely due to the efforts of Horace Smith-Dorrien who, when commanding Aldershot Command (and later Southern Command) made the donkey-wallopers get off their horses and shoot. Along with S-D's (an infantryman) more sensible attitude towards discipline at Aldershot, this severely disjointed the nose of his predecessor, John French, who didn't really like his troopers dismounting.

I feel (as do some others) that this was part of the genesis of the ill-feeling between two men which resulted in " 'Orace, you're for 'ome" in April (or was it May ?) 1915.

Haig, as French's acolyte up until the post-Loos back-stabbing,(yes, I know, he got a few preliminary pinpricks in in the right quarters earlier than that) was also (on the face of it) resistant to the cavalry tactics S-D introduced at Aldershot, although he did not change them when he took command there. I am as convinced as it is possible to be that the circumstantial evidence points towards Haig's involvement (perhaps only by playing on the suggestible mind of French who was at the point of mental collapse) in the dismissal of his rival, senior, more emotionally robust and clearly professionally superior, Horace Smith-Dorrien.

I thengyow,Playmates.

[dman]

The German Karabiner 98 was a shortened version of the Gewehr 98 rifle

It had IIRC a 18 inch (actually 17 3/4in ) barrel vs 29 inch for the Gew 98 l, turned down bolt handle and no bayonet lug, Mamufactured from 1898 to 1908

It was designed for cavalry and for support troops vs front line infantry

Firing a full powered (7.92 x 57mm) cartridge in such a short barrel made it kick like mule and had a lheavy muzzle flash and blast

It was replaced by the Karabiner 98 AZ (A for bayonet, Z for the type of stacking attachment at the muzzle

[AOK4]

The fighting power of German cavalry was not very big. They were considered to perform reconnaissance and do some small-scale fighting, but they were definitely no match for British cavalry in regards to fire power.

It's one of the reasons they gave up Ypres after the small-scale fighting on the Katsberg in 1914 and just withdrew to Lille. Quite a few cavalry divisions were engaged South and Southeast of Ypres in October 1914 and they didn't perform well there either.

[Steven Broomfield]

Firing a full powered (7.92 x 57mm) cartridge in such a short barrel made it kick like mule and had a lheavy muzzle flash and blast

Interesting: would that have the effect of slowing the rate of fire? I'm thinking tiring the user rather quickly and making re-aiming a problem.

Thanks all for the help: very much appreciated.

[TonyE]

The German Karabiner 98 was a shortened version of the Gewehr 98 rifle

It had IIRC a 18 inch (actually 17 3/4in ) barrel vs 29 inch for the Gew 98 l, turned down bolt handle and no bayonet lug, Mamufactured from 1898 to 1908

It was designed for cavalry and for support troops vs front line infantry

Firing a full powered (7.92 x 57mm) cartridge in such a short barrel made it kick like mule and had a lheavy muzzle flash and blast

It was replaced by the Karabiner 98 AZ (A for bayonet, Z for the type of stacking attachment at the muzzle

The barrel length of the 98AZ carbine was actually 600mm (23.6 inches) so not as short as you thought. Apart from the shorter barrel it also had a narrower receiver ring, 33mm compared to 36mm for the rifle.

It was still quite fierce to shoot. When they were being tested a Bavarian cavalry regiment reported "The main criticism of the weapon concerns the strong falsh on firing, betraying the soldier's position at a major disadvantage, the strong recoil and bang, the folding sight and the strong heat of the sight after firing a large number of shots."

So yes, Steve, like most carbines they were more tiring to fire.

Regards

Tonye

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks, Mr Edwards.

[Stoppage Drill]

Without wishing to be pedantic, I'm sure Tony will forgive me for commenting on his statement that "most carbines are tiring to fire." This is true of carbines which are simply a shortened version of the standard rifle, and -crucially - firing the same cartridge. The classic example is the so-called Lee-Enfield "Jungle Carbine".

A purpose designed carbine shooting a suitable cartridge is a delight to shoot. Compare the M1 Garand (cal 30-06 Govt) and the M1 Carbine (cal 30 Carbine).

[TonyE]

A fair point about the M1 Carbine,but the operative word in my statement was "most". What other carbines can you think of in the general period under discussion used a specially designed cartridge? The only one I can think of is the MP43/44 and that really falls into the late/post WW2 era of the intermediate cartridge.

Certainly back in the blackpowder days carbine versions of things like the Werndl either had smaller or lower powered rounds but prior to late/post WW2 carbines generally used the normal rifle cartridge.

Apart from the 98AZ I am thinking of the L-E carbines, M-E carbines, the very short Mausers produced by FN, (mainly for S. America), the M-N M44 etc., even the Mauser M88s.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Apart from the 98AZ I am thinking of the L-E carbines, M-E carbines, the very short Mausers produced by FN, (mainly for S. America), the M-N M44 etc., even the Mauser M88s.

Regards

TonyE

and the Mannlichers, Berthiers and (7.92mm conv) Carcanos!

The straight-pull mannlichers and the M-N carbines are certainly ferocious beasts....and I can only imagine the Kar 88 (mine would need to be professionally checked before I would fire it!)

I wonder if the short rifles/carbines firing the 6.5mm round (Swedish/Arisaka/Carcano etc) or the 7.65mm (Argentine/Belgian) were less bad? I have examples but have yet to fire them.....

My 7mm Spanish carbine is not bad...certainly better than the others listed above.

Chris

[dman]

Tony

Was referring to the original KAR 98 which was produced from 1898 - 1908

It had an 18 in barrel , was replaced by the KAR 98 AZ whhich had a longer barrel to mitigate some of the problems in the KAR 98

[roger cleverly]

I've handled one of the original '98 cavalry carbines, in the late Mark Dineley's attic, it does have a bayonet standard incorporated into the barrel band, i.e. the wooden forestock protrudes beyond it. On the subject of carbine accuracy, the general point seems to be that if you use standard rifle ammunition the excess muzzle flash appears to destabilize the bullet on leaving the muzzle. An interesting comment in the records of QODY (Dorset Yeomanry) was that when they were switched from Martini-Henry 450/577 carbines (with its own shorter cartridge) to the .303 conversion (standard rifle cartridge) there was a distinct deterioration in marksmanship. RC