To clean or not clean...

[DCLI]

Not that old sausage - medal cleaning.

I am a fan of restoring medals to their former (original) glory, using original matterial where possible and cleaning them - to be more precise, having them cleaned.

This group has new, orginal ribbons and has been cleaned - shame on me!

What do people think?

regards

Anthony

[Derek Robertson]

Very nice indeed.

My preference for cleaning medals or not depends on which way the wind is blowing.

I can see the arguments both for cleaning or not cleaning.

I recently cleaned a casualty pair because they were filthy - 80 years of muck had meant that the soldier's details were totally hidden. Just uncovering his name made the medals look worse so I had to completely clean them. And they look good.

What do you clean your medals with Anthony?

[DCLI]

I am afraid I cheat - I get someone else to do it, when they are being mounted.

I have tried mounting but them but with my sausage fingers it is tricky to say the least.

But I did buy some silver dip recently and that works wonders on the silver medals. I have tried warm soapy water for the others but it doesn't seem to work - I need a broze dip or something like that.

I am open to suggestions for the Star and VM

Anthony

[PhilB]

Anthony, I take it the ones on the right are the "after" ones. How did the star get what looks like a brown cast?

The photos remind me of something that I was always unsure about when trying to mount a trio:-

1/ What is the correct length of ribbon on the VM & BWM?

2/ What is correct for the star and should the star be mounted so that its centre is level with the centres of the other two? This puts the point of the star below the bottoms of the other two.

Phil B (soap and water man)

[DCLI]

I was recently told that it should be 9cm from the top of the ribbon to the bottom of the medal - for the all.

The 'brown cast' could be the not so brilliant lighting for the photo.

See pic

[PhilB]

That would put the bottoms all level?

There seem to be striations on both medals. Is that from the cleaning or a photo effect?

Compare the pristine one below:-

(9794 Pte T.H.Barnes, 1 Northampton R, KIA 10/7/17, Defence of Nieuport) Phil B

[DirtyDick]

Naval medals should be mounted on one-and-three-quarter-inches long ribbon; two-inches if more than one bar of medals is worn (who would need to, though?). If there are more than three medals worn on a bar they should be evenly overlapped.

I believe the Army have different standards...

Ricardo

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

There seem to be striations on both medals. Is that from the cleaning or a photo effect?

Yes indeed - it looks like someone has used a brillo pad at sometime.

However everyone has their own view on this.

[Archer]

As it IS an old sausage, may I have a chew, please?

1) No one could go on parade with 'idle' medals. In our collections medals are often on parade,' not tucked in a shoebox under the bed.

2) Who can prove that the filth of years was inflicted on the medals or even approved by the recipient? (When I was a child I used to play cowboys and native Americans wearing my grandfather's gongs for heaven's sake!)

3) I suggest cleaning and mounting those you want to display - unless the cleaning would do violence to some historical evidence of something (Er ...)

4) The bottom line is: Do what you like - they belong to you now.

It's an oddly 'moorish' old sausage, isn't it?

William

[DirtyDick]

I never before heard of a child playing a game called 'Cowboys and Native Americans'.

Must be heap good game, Little Plum.

[Archer]

"The days went by in a blaze, it was the long Indian Summer before the War ..." Er no. Wrong script...

I thought 'Cowboys and First Nations' sounded too Canadian, somehow. At least for an African like me.

Dr. Kildeer, alias Archer, alias William

[PhilB]

4) The bottom line is: Do what you like - they belong to you now.

But William, what would you say about someone who had, say, a Light Brigade charger`s medal and melted it down on the basis that he owned it, so he could do what he liked? Surely you have a moral duty to look after the medals while you own them, for the benefit of future generations? Phil B

[Max Poilu]

I am afraid I cheat - I get someone else to do it, when they are being mounted

Is this someone else a framer or a restoration expert? - if he had ruined my medals like that I would be furious. The golden rule of any restoration is easy does it; something abrasive has been used on the metal and you will never get those marks out without sacrificing much of the original detail.

Sorry to be blunt Anthony but that lovely old patina evident in the 'before' photo is gone forever, a soft cloth or at most a soft tooth brush and soapy water is all that should have been used.

[DCLI]

Fair enough. But I know they arenot rubbed, but dipped, then lightly polished, no abrasives or brillo pads/wire brushes anywhere near them. I assume the rubbing marks are old - perhaps the original owner buffed them up - fair enough I say.

And nothing last forever - even the Pyramids will be gone one day.

Thanks for all your comments

very interesting

[Ski]

Ahh... to clean or not to clean, that is the question!

Again, i suppose it has alot to do with personal choice, however this is mine:-

1.If the medal is not greasy or deeply stained then i will simply leave it.

2. If it does have a nasty finger print or stain on it then i will use warm soapy water, but never anything abrasive.

3. As for ribbons, i know there is the age old excuse of you can never be sure if a ribbon has been replaced so you may as well replace it. However, i think most would agree that you can see or at least have an idea if a medal has been hanging on the same bar for the past eighty years (By the way the medals hang, the deep crease's in the ribbon and the repeated contact marks in the same place where the medals have knock in the same place for years). And again in that case i would leave them, as this is how they were worn by the owner.

4. And finally, i totally agree with Giles on what he calls the "lovely old patina", especially when it comes to medals awarded to casualties. Seeing such a patina re-enforeces the reason why the these medal were never cleaned, or worn.

Saying all that though, as i stated at the start of my post, it's down to personal choice. If you have paid out hard earned cash for a set of medals and you are happy with the way you are looking after them, then thats fair enough.

Cheers,

Ski

[Archer]

But William, what would you say about someone who had, say, a Light Brigade charger`s medal and melted it down on the basis that he owned it, so he could do what he liked? Surely you have a moral duty to look after the medals while you own them, for the benefit of future generations? Phil B

I was hoping someone would raise that point.

No. Simply put, you do not have any more of a moral duty to look after medals than you have in respect of any antique or near-antique possession you own.

It is a thought that sustains many collectors, but medals are no more valuable to history than Chippendale furniture, Stradivarius violins, or china manufactured in Stoke. They must muddle through like all antiques.

The 'personality' with which medals are imbued probably comes from the names impressed on the rims (of some but not all.) The old photographs you see lying in dusty heaps on barrows at street markets are in a way more personal, and yet treated with scant respect.

The bottom line is either you act as a custodian or you don't - the compunction comes from inside you. It is not forced on you by some 'moral duty' towards future generations in respect of medals.

Look at the auction prices if you don't believe me. Is a certain noble Lord better endowed with a 'moral duty' in respect of the VC than you are? Of course not. He's a grand capitalist. He's cornered the market and driven up the price of the commodity beyond your reach. He may leave his estate to the nation. Or he may not.

Ah ... the fascination of medals!

William

[PhilB]

And nothing last forever - even the Pyramids will be gone one day.

Especially if it gets sandblasted every week or two! Phil B

[Tim Godden]

This is a little bit different I know, but may be of interest.

I have two sets of medals, my GG uncles Pip, Squeak and Wilfred and my G Grandad's pair. Both were killed in the war.

My GG uncles have always been kept in a polished state from the day they were received until today.

My G Grandad's as far as I know have never been touched, and so that is the way I leave them.

What I am getting at is that maybe some of these medals should be left as that is as much a sign of something as having them gleaming. Personally I would like to shine my G Grandad's medals as I am very proud of his sacrifice, but, his wife, daughter, grandson have not done it and now seems a bit against the tradition. There was a reason for them not to be shined and who am I to break that tradition.

It is, at the end of the day, every individuals choice, but it must always remembered that not every medal had the chance of being worn on parade.

All the best,

Tim

[PhilB]

I don`t suppose most members have had the pleasure of having a real brass capbadge to keep shiny bright. They quickly lose their highlights and eventually become almost featureless. (It was the sign of someone who`d "seen service" that his capbadge looked well worn). That`s probably why I have a horror of seeing medals go the same way.

Incidentally, why do so few WW1 capbadges show wear through cleaning? Phil B

[dycer]

Phil,

I suppose the glib answer to your question re polishing of cap badges.Who would want to polish on active service.Shiny bits of equipment could attract enemy attention.I remember the Paras blackening their badges prior to service in the Falklands.

I side with Tim re not cleaning.My two trios are in the packets,envelopes they were deilvered in.They've not been assembled,polished for 80 odd years so why bother now.

George

[PhilB]

George, I was drawing a parallel with the medals (which don`t see active service!)

Good man, not cleaning, but a good soapy wash will remove any deleterious muck, which might cause attack!

Phil B

[Tim Godden]

The 7th battalion of The London Regiment were known as the Shiny Seventh due to their regimental tradition of always keeping their brasses shiny. However, they suffered horrendous losses from sniper fire who could see the brass glinting. How long the practice continued once the seventh had been in the field for a while I do not know.

It is logical that you would try to minimise the possibilities of the enemy seeing you and therefore when in the line keep brasses in a dulled down state.

All the best,

Tim

[harribobs]

on the same sort of topic, i have just got a plaque with a nice patina but with a few patches of verdegris (spelling) before i do anything with it, would soap and water be the best way of cleaning the offending stuff off?

chris

[Max Poilu]

Soap and water and a very soft toothbrush should be worth a try. But nothing abrasive like wire wool (even 000 grade), those foam and nylon pot scourers, stiff brushes, Duraglit wadding, toothpaste, Vim (yep, people do!), etc.

You can try a solvent, perhaps WD40 or similar and a soft cloth, this may help remove the verdigris but not damage the surface. It may remove some of the patina however.

[Derek Robertson]

Just to really set the cat amongst the pigeons....................BRAKE FLUID !!

It doesn't half cut through grime!