Prototype tracked vehicle 1915?

[Moonraker]

This postcard

is on offer on eBay.

I queried the vendor about his claim that the photograph was taken on Salisbury Plain in 1915, and he replied that this had been written on the envelope in which the postcard came.

He appeared very willing to take on board any reservations I might have, but in truth I can't offer anything definite.

However I've never come across any references to such vehicles being tested on the Plain in 1915 (though the Hornsby Little Caterpillar was photographed at Lark Hill before the war) and the Trench Warfare experimental ground near Porton hadn't been established by then. (In 1916 the Pedrail Landship - which we've discussed before - did end up there.)

Several tank prototypes were tested elsewhere in the country.

I find it hard to believe that a postcard showing an experimental vehicle would have been published during the war, the more so as the development of the tank was conducted in great secrecy.

I've seen photographs in books of vehicles like the one featured, but I can't conveniently access these. So, any information on it would be of interest.

I don't intend to bid for the postcard.

Moonraker

[SiegeGunner]

Holt 120 tractor?

[jay dubaya]

Looks very much like a Holt Caterpillar Tractor as used by the ASC

[ss002d6252]

I was just going to suggest a Holt Tractor - I'm sure that picture has been on here before.

Craig

[Moonraker]

Thanks, guys. I've Googled "Holt Caterpillar Tractor", and you're correct. So the eBay pic shows a vehicle commonly used in civilian life being tested/used by the military, so hardly hush-hush. And the postcard could have been published in 1915. Impossible to say whether it does or does not show the tractor on the Plain.

Moonraker

[centurion]

Holts, and later after they'd merged with Best, Caterpillar, put out the story that their tractor had been the prototype for the tank. Pure cynical marketing tactics but all sorts of post cards etc were sold/given away in support of this. They even bought a surplus Mk IV female and used to drive it at shows and things to support this right up to 1942 when it was turned into scrap for the US war effort.

[centurion]

Holts/Caterpillar used to claim this was their development!

[centurion]

What you actually get if you try and develop an armoured vehicle from a Holt tractor

[jay dubaya]

Looks like a darlek

[GRANVILLE]

Thanks, guys. I've Googled "Holt Caterpillar Tractor", and you're correct. So the eBay pic shows a vehicle commonly used in civilian life being tested/used by the military, so hardly hush-hush. And the postcard could have been published in 1915. Impossible to say whether it does or does not show the tractor on the Plain.

Moonraker

The Holt tractor was an American machine, designed for agricultural purposes but with the outbreak of the war, its potential for hauling loads over poor road surfaces was obvious to the makers who put it forward to the British. Presumably one or more were shipped over prompto for field testing and getting drivers familiar with them etc. I can't say I was aware Holt tried to steal all the thunder over inventing the British tanks and in fact if you look on this Wikipedia link you see how after the war Ernest Swinton goes in person to the USA to publicly acknowledge Holts contribution to the war effort, not least how his invention of the crawler track had inspired the work with resulted in the designs of the British tanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Holt

David

[michaeldr]

The following regarding the ASC's Tractor Depot may be of interest here. It is taken from Col R H Beadon's 'The Royal Army Service Corps – A history of transport and supply in the British Army' Vol.II, first published in 1930.

“...the only one of its kind in the country [the tractor depot at Avonmouth] was originally started at Aldershot in December 1914 when it was called the 'Caterpillar Section' and first attached to No.52 Company, Army Service Corps. Seven months later its increasing importance caused it to be constituted as a separate unit, and in April 1916 it was moved to Avonmouth.

Its story has a certain historical interest, for it was the parent unit of all roadless transport which was in future to effect so profoundly the science and practice of war.* None of the personnel joining this unit except one, who was an American, had ever enjoyed any previous experience of caterpillar work, and Mr. Rose, who was Messrs Holt's representative in Great Britain, instructed the first detachment of six men for some time, subsequently paying occasional visits of inspection. On the 4^th February 1915, the first overseas draft, consisting of fourteen men and three caterpillars, went out to join the 10^th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery, but no officer was available, and the departure of the draft reduced the home section to three men and one caterpillar. From thence onwards, however, progress was comparatively rapid. Caterpillars began to arrive, commencing at the rate of two or three a week and, by the end of February, the personnel had attained a strength of one officer and sixty men. By July these numbers had increased to eight officers and two hundred and thirty-five n. c. o.'s and men, and the output rose accordingly. The nomenclature Tractor Depot, ASC, was given in February 1916.

Such were the modest beginnings ….....................................ultimately comprising nineteen officers and five hundred and thirty-two other ranks and fifteen hundred caterpillar tractors and two hundred trucks were through their agency despatched overseas.

*It will be recalled that the Hornsby-Ackroyd tractor purchased in 1903 and subsequently converted to a caterpillar was the first vehicle of this type in the Army, but it was purely experimental and even aroused ridicule in certain quarters outside the Army Service Corps.”

[delta]

The ASC were using Holt tractors in France at the same time that tank prototypes were being developed.

Holt tractors were shipped from America to Avonmouth, where an ASC tractor depot was based.

It was the tractor depot which provided the drivers and mechanics who formed 711 MT Company which supported C and D Companies of the Heavy Section Machine Gun Corps - the drivers being the men who drove the firs tanks into action on 15 Sep 1916 at the battle of Flers - Courcelette.

[centurion]

The ASC were using Holt tractors in France at the same time that tank prototypes were being developed.

Holt tractors were shipped from America to Avonmouth, where an ASC tractor depot was based.

It was the tractor depot which provided the drivers and mechanics who formed 711 MT Company which supported C and D Companies of the Heavy Section Machine Gun Corps - the drivers being the men who drove the firs tanks into action on 15 Sep 1916 at the battle of Flers - Courcelette.

Holt tractors were used by the British Army in France, Italy, Salonika, Mesopotamia and Palestine. Holts pulled road trains of wheeled trailers between France and Italy and in Palestine trains of tracked trailers were pulled across the Sinai desert . Indeed without these the British army would not have been able to advance after the Gaza battles. However the Holt design played little or no role in the Tank development, the Lincoln number one (developed into little Willy) used a track system from an entirely different American tractor and this was replaced by one entirely of Triton's own design The Holt design relied on the front roller for steering (being affectively a half track) which was not the case with the tank

[michaeldr]

I agree that photograph linked to in the OP shows a Holts

however (as Cent points out) because of the steering roller it is difficult to think of it as a prototype 'tank'

A more likely contender for that title would be the Hornsby

see the two photographs op p.86 in Col Michael Young's history showing one called 'Giant Caterpillar' at Aldershot c.1905 and another called 'Little Caterpillar' at Tidworth c.1910.

[centurion]

Given that Lincoln no 1/Little Willy was the first true tank and it originally had a Bullock Creeping Grip Tractor basis this could be a better candidate

http://www.farmcollector.com/~/media/Images/FCM/Editorial/Articles/Magazine%20Articles/2013/11-01/Rare%201917%20Bullock%20Creeping%20Grip%20Crawler/Bullock-Creeping-Grip%20jpg.jpg

[michaeldr]

I agree the above Cent., Bullock tracks were used

however the 'track' idea went back earlier to the Hornsby

see Bovington exhibit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hornsby_Chain_Track_Tractor.jpg

[centurion]

I agree the above Cent., Bullock tracks were used

however the 'track' idea went back earlier to the Hornsby

see Bovington exhibit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hornsby_Chain_Track_Tractor.jpg

Earlier to be precise - much earlier.

[Moonraker]

Here's the Hornsby Little Caterpillar at Lark Hill before the war:

Moonraker

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Seeing the postcard that started this thread off, I realized that I had a photo of one of these tractors as well:

It was taken by my great-uncle Joe Corser, who joined the Australian Flying Corps in 1916 as an Air Mechanic, and was sent to 1 Squadron in Palestine, where this photo was taken. He was there from August 1916 to March 1918, and I have a little album of his Palestine photos that he sent to his younger sister at Christmas 1917.

Bill

[centurion]

Although the Hornsby was an early example

the idea of tracked vehicles had been around even earlier and Pedrail had patented a form of track laying even before

The Lombard half track was in use in the USA and Canada before the Holt and had been purchased by the Russian Army.

[Moonraker]

Centurion's post encourages me to post this photograph (perhaps again) of the Pedrail Landship - which was not a success:

See also

this thread

Moonraker

[centurion]

Col Crompton's final design based on Pedrail track units

was long enough for intialtrench crossing but could then spit into two faster independent tanks to exploit the break through

[Moonraker]

Thanks for all the information. The vendor has amended his listing to reflect my original - uninformed - reservations, and I've now emailed him a very short summary of the above.

Moonraker