A strange strike on a primer

[assafx]

Good Morning,

This 0.303 cartridge was found in another survey at Nebi Samuel .

The strange thing about it is that the primer was hit at least twice

Is it Possible to strike a cartridge twice without ejecting it after the first shot or this is a result of someone tampering with this round after the battle?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99400666@N05/11128196136/

Thank You

Assaf

[robins2]

possibly tried in two different rifles??, the large depression in primer does not look like it is from firing pin

regards

Bob R.

[Thunderbox]

Looks like it was fired in a Bren gun with a chipped firing pin. The regular ovoid shape is classic Bren.

Wrong era, etc.

I often re-fire dud rounds, and it doesn't make that sort of pattern. It looks more like what happens when an inert round is used as a drill round and cycled many, many times.

[T8HANTS]

Some of those strikes are so way off centre that I dont think they were made by a rifle bolt, or at least not one that chambers a .303".

I would go with the round being 'played with'.

G

[assafx]

I forgot to mention that besides 1917, the site saw fighting on a smaller scale both in 1948 and in 1967.

From other cartridges collected on the site (both on survey or in an excavation), I have evidence for what I call "battlefield looting".

in some cases it looks like this cartridge, that shows signs of trying to take the primer out, or one without a primer:

I even have a modified 0.303 that was fitted to be fired from a mauser.

This looting was for maintaining old weapons owned by the local Arab villagers.

I also suspect, that they also acquired weapons and ammo in 1917 that were used in 1948 and in some cases bought new ammo for WWI guns that were used in the same war.

So far i have only two cartridges to support my theory but that's not enough. So if it's a Bren Gun that was used in 1948 with WWI ammo how do i prove it?

regarding the off center strike, here's an example from the Negev, same headstamp btw:

or this one from nebi samuel:

so it leads me to another question:

could the off center strike be the result of a lack of maintenance?

Thank You

Assaf

[centurion]

Somewhere I've seen an item that suggested that the Irgun had Brens but insufficient ammo and did some fiddling to fire rounds not originally designed for the weapon. If its from 1948ish is this a possibility?

[MikB]

Brens would fire any 303 Mk.VII round AFAIK - the heavy oval-section pin was designed to make sure no workable round would ever dare misfire.

You can, on Lee Enfield, simply pull back the cocking-piece to recock with a misfired round up the spout. Lack of maintenance of even a mismatched bolt is unlikely to take the pin indentation more than 10 or 15 thou out of centre. Some of the photographed strikes look very much the result of somebody monkeying about with the round, probably at considerable personal danger, perhaps unrealised - at least until the struck primer did its job...

Regards,

MikB

[assafx]

Somewhere I've seen an item that suggested that the Irgun had Brens but insufficient ammo and did some fiddling to fire rounds not originally designed for the weapon. If its from 1948ish is this a possibility?

I won't be surprised if the "Irgun', "Hahagana", Stern Group and later, the IDF had to Improvise and fit ammo to various guns.

Both Arab and Jews in 1948 Palestine, used any weapon that they could get their hands on.

This huge variety of weapons in different calibers (German, French, British, American and you can add few more) created a logistical problem and in many cases, ammunition shortage.

In the case of Neby Samuel, the "Palmach' was defeated and never entered the village.

This Cartridge was found in the opposite direction to our attack, so it's either the local Arabs who made use of WWI ammunition in 1948 or a small detachment of Fawzi al-Qawuqji's men, who were in the village at that time.

so this fiddling (if it is a fiddling) was made by the Arab Side.

i remember seeing a book about the IWI from the 1940's to the 1980's. i'll have to look for it in the university library to see if they indeed found a way to fit other ammunition to bren guns.

Thanks

[assafx]

i'm sorry for not posting it earlier, this is how the whole cartridge looks like.

it seems To me, as if it was torn away after it was fired.

Also my apologies for not posting studio shots, as i usually do.

Brens would fire any 303 Mk.VII round AFAIK - the heavy oval-section pin was designed to make sure no workable round would ever dare misfire.

You can, on Lee Enfield, simply pull back the cocking-piece to recock with a misfired round up the spout. Lack of maintenance of even a mismatched bolt is unlikely to take the pin indentation more than 10 or 15 thou out of centre. Some of the photographed strikes look very much the result of somebody monkeying about with the round, probably at considerable personal danger, perhaps unrealised - at least until the struck primer did its job...

Regards,

MikB

The strike on this cartridge looks like a Bren Strike or a few strikes from a Lee Enfield?

[TonyE]

I'm with Mik and T8, they look like someone has been playing with them. No rifle is going to leave firing pin impressions that far off centre,

Regards

TonyE

[303man]

Martini Enfield Rifles & Carbines have a habit of off center firing pin strike, I have one of each and time permitting will post a photo we are all assuming a SMLE here.

[aussielhr]

It does look like the work of bored soldiers trying to find how much banging it takes to set it off

[assafx]

I'm with Mik and T8, they look like someone has been playing with them. No rifle is going to leave firing pin impressions that far off centre,

Regards

TonyE

So the most likely chance is that a board kid (or an adult) struck the primer until the thing blew up?

Martini Enfield Rifles & Carbines have a habit of off center firing pin strike, I have one of each and time permitting will post a photo we are all assuming a SMLE here.

i would like to see that photograph if you can.

Thank You

Assaf

[MikB]

So the most likely chance is that a board kid (or an adult) struck the primer until the thing blew up?

It looks very much like that to me, and the ruptured case in the photo would be well within the range of expected results. Such an event may well have injured the person who did it more or less seriously.

Regards,

MikB

[robins2]

by the look of the top side view of the casing it appears that the round was placed in a short pipe or round barrel of some kind and fired by striking the primer with an object, appears to me that the casing is bottle necked (expanded at top and part way down to where it ruptured) possibly a home made pipe gun???

regards

Bob R.

[assafx]

After the modification of a 0.303 round to 7.92 mauser, I won't be surprised if it was placed in a pipe and fired.

I might have some studio time next week, maybe a better photograph of the whole Cartridge will help.

Thank You again,

Assaf

[Stoppage Drill]

Hello Assaf.

I see old Mk VII cases on an almost daily basis which have been lightly buried or left on the surface of exposed ground (an old field firing range) which have ruptured as per the image in your post #9.

I conclude that there is some metallurgical reason for a weakness about halfway up the case which allows corrosion to start which eventually causes the case to break apart at this point.

I used to think that the thermal and mechanical stresses imposed by firing the round were a contributory factor, but on the other hand I have found unfired cases broken in this way, still containing cordite rods sticking out. I often pick these things up to bring home to look at under a magnifying glass, and I wouldn't be surprised if I have one in my overcoat pocket right now. That's how common such damaged cases are.

The combination of the rupture and the apparent abuse of the base of the round in your pic may well lead to a conclusion that the two things are necessarily connected, but my frequent observation leads me to think that this is not obvious.