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Remembered Today:

Are both these York & Lancs Cap Badges ?


Myrtle

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I'm wondering about these two cap badges. They both look like York & Lancs but the tiger seems to be facing the other way on one of them. The cap badges appear on the same photograph so the print hasn't been reversed.

post-38-0-31299300-1385167858_thumb.jpg

post-38-0-49754300-1385167872_thumb.jpg

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I also put this in the other thread - It's not unheard of - collar badges usually came in symmetrical pairs, and what is possibly the odd "wrong" way facing one ends up used as a cap badge at some point. There is another well known photograph of Bruce Bairnsfather that is the same (clearly not reversed, yet the antelope faces viewers left instead of right):

http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/portraits/b/bruce-bairnsfather-200x316.jpg

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I'm wondering about these two cap badges. They both look like York & Lancs but the tiger seems to be facing the other way on one of them. The cap badges appear on the same photograph so the print hasn't been reversed.

Hi Myrtle,

To answer your question, yes these do appear to be both York and Lancaster Regt., although as Andrew has pointed out it is just possible, and really the only explanation, that a collar badge has been used as a cap badge in the right hand image.

Robert

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Mytrle,

they are definately both York and Lancs badges and collar badges at that. Do you know which battalion these men are from? I suspect that the two caps (officers?) pictured above were members of 5th Battalion. Notes from Colin Churchill would suggest this and he goes on to mention that when the 2nd VB York and Lancs were redesignated the 5th Battalion (TF) on 1st April 1908 they were ordered to wear the line battalion collar badges. This order was larglely ignored with officers wearing the bronze cap badges on their service dress with the tigers facing both ways and can often be seen with a separate bronze 'T' below.

Jon

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I also put this in the other thread - It's not unheard of - collar badges usually came in symmetrical pairs, and what is possibly the odd "wrong" way facing one ends up used as a cab badge at some point. There is another well known photograph of Bruch Bairnsfather that is the same (clearly not reversed, yet the antelope faces viewers left instead of right):

http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/portraits/b/bruce-bairnsfather-200x316.jpg

Thank you Andrew, I noticed both of your posts

I started another thread as I realised after adding to my Yorkshire Regiment cap badge thread, that the question re. York & Lancs could be overlooked.

Jon

I will get back to you later as I am supposed to be somewhere else at the moment.

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they are definately both York and Lancs badges and collar badges at that. Do you know which battalion these men are from?

The badge on the left is worn by an officer of the 11th York & Lancs. The badge on the right is from an officer whose Battalion I don't know, unless someone has access to matching his name to a battalion.

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The badge on the left is worn by an officer of the 11th York & Lancs. The badge on the right is from an officer whose Battalion I don't know, unless someone has access to matching his name to a battalion.

Hi Myrtle,

If you can post his full name, or surname and initials, then I may be able to find his battalion for you from the army list.

Robert

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Thanks Robert

His name is William Herbert Dixon from Barnsley

Good Morning Myrtle,

Here is the info:

Dec.1915 Army List: W.H.Dixon, 2/Lt 18/9/15, 15th(Reserve)Bn York and Lancaster Regt.

Oct.1917 Army List W.H.Dixon, 2/Lt 18/9/15, 13th(1st Barnsley)Bn York and Lancaster Regt.(employed Command Depot).

Feb.1919 Army List W.H.Dixon, Lt. 1/7/17, Service Bns York and Lancaster Regt, (but shown as serving with the 13th Bn.)

I am not certain if he was actually with the 13th Bn on 1/7/16, but he may well have been transferred to them as a replacement following the battle.

Hope this helps.

Robert

PS If you have any further names about whom you require similar details, then please let me have them.

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Thank you Robert. Do you know where the Command Depot would have been ?

P.S I will certainly take you up on your kind offer.

Hello Myrtle,

I am not absolutely certain where this would be, but looking at his MIC I would tend to think in the UK, because his medals will be named to 2/Lt and he was promoted to Lieut. on 1/7/17, so he must have been in the UK prior to that date and remained there--at least that is my interpretation of the facts.

He is also noted as having an SWB, which may have some relevance to why he remained at home from sometime prior to 1/7/17.

His service papers would almost certainly clarify what happened to him.

Robert

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Thank you Robert

We know that he was in Officers' Training October 1915, that he entered a Theatre if War 13.06.16. and that he was eligible for a SWB 21.04.19.

Possibly injured in some way or suffering from shell shock so kept at Command Depot following overseas service, but why issued with SWB in 1919. Seems late if injured in 1916.

I will add Lt Dixon to my list to check when I eventually manage to visit the NA.

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Hi Myrtle,

I have checked for his SWB via Ancestry but failed to find him--I suspect that you may have done the same? I had a thought to look in the 'Barnsley Pals' book by Jon Cooksey. Unfortunately I could find no mention of Lieut Dixon apart from in the list of officers who served with the battalion during the war, here his entry shows: Dixon, W.H., 2/Lt., Wounded: August, 1916. There are no further details in the book, or at least not that I can find--there is no index!! So possibly he was with the battalion on 1/7/16? but may have been held in reserve, as indeed some men were in order to form a new battalion should there be heavy casualties.

Well, at least it's a start!!? The Barnsley newspapers may reveal more about his wounding and even have a photo of him to compare to your group photo.

Robert

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Thanks Robert

Yes I have checked Ancestry. I wouldn't be surprised if William Dixon is mentioned in the local newspaper. His father was an architect and surveyor in Barnsley and William worked as his assistant. Interestingly his sister, Ethel, was listed as an architectural student in the 1911 census.

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  • 8 months later...

My great uncle was William Herbert Dixon. He was wounded by shrapnel through the jaw and neck Sunday 02.00 13th August 1916. He was at the Somme. He was in the 13th Yorks and Lancaster Regiment and was from Barnsley.

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The command depot was often wherever the Reserve or Special Reserve Battalion was based. This was usually the 3rd (formerly Militia) Battalion, although for larger regiments there could also be a 4th Battalion. This would usally be indicated by the number of the first TF battalion that followed in sequence.

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For Myrtle,

William Dixon was on home service after having been wounded. I have a letter of his dated October 1917 sent from Sunderland ( C company, Southwick School). And I have a letter from Northern Command Rippon April 1917.

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Hello Jox2

I have just noticed your post. Thank you for explaining when and where your great uncle was injured. I am interested to know if his letters describe the circumstances under which he was wounded and if he returned to work as an Architect/surveyor after the war.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Myrtle,

Someone called Arthur Harrup saw him go out of his dug out. A few seconds later he had come running back in as a shell had burst and William had had his teeth knocked out and was unable to speak. He went to 7 Stationary Hospital Boulogne before being shipped back to England. He stayed in the forces until the end of the war but was not sent back to the front. He didn't work as an architect/surveyor afterwards and he had difficulty in getting an army pension. He died in 1953 but not much was spoken of him. I don't know what work he did. I am told he suffered with shell shock and took to the bottle but that is family talk and I have nothing in writing about that.

I would be happy to forward you transcripts of his correspondence but I don't think I can do this here and my computer skills are lacking.

Jox2

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Thank you so much for this. I have never seen this picture before. My siblings will also be very interested. I don't know how to get it to my email. 

Regards,

Joanna

Edited by Jox2
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