Muerrisch Posted 25 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2013 On 17 Sep 1914 Kitchener made a statement in Parliament which included "The whole of the Special Reserve and Extra Special Reserve units will be maintained at their full establishments as feeders to the Expeditionary Force." Craig Thank you very much. He clearly could not have believed "at their full establishments by Special Reserve enlistments using pre-war Terms", could he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 November , 2013 Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Thank you very much. He clearly could not have believed "at their full establishments by Special Reserve enlistments using pre-war Terms", could he? The whole statement is here http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1914/sep/17/the-war . It doesn't specifically state how he intended to achieve the establishments. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 November , 2013 Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Grumpy - I have just posted the DLI data on my prev post....MG I think there is strong evidence in the numbers that the number of available Reservists was a function of where men lived after their service, not where they came from or which Regiment they last served with. The correlation between the heavlily populated counties and the number of available Reservists is high. Something has to explain why the DLI had 140% more Reservists than the Lincolnshire Regt despite both operating a paired-regular battalion structure of only 2 battalions as opposed to four in the case of the Middlesex, R Fusiliers etc. I don't want to go off at a tangent to your question on the date of arrival of the first Kitchener men as reinforcements, but the residual number of available Reservists had a direct impact on when Kitchener men were pulled into the equation. Population densities also have a dircet impact on a Regiment's ability to divert some Kitchener men to the reinforcement channel of the regulars, particularly so if some were ex- Militia men or time expired Reservists. Edited for brevity. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Martin, I take your point. It is difficult to reconcile it with the fact that monthly returns as you have kindly supplied have a column "Number of men with the Army Reserve borne as supplementary", typically c. 1500 to 2000 men for a 2 battalion regiment. I cannot begin to imagine the admin required to move reservist Pte 12345 David Davies RWF on to the books of DLI because he has taken his pick and shovel northeastwards. Can you? The whole statement is here http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1914/sep/17/the-war . It doesn't specifically state how he intended to achieve the establishments. Craig Very useful indeed, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2013 1st DLI and 2nd DLI recruiting over the years, from Paul Nixon. Period 1902 to 1914 about 4200 men, average 350 men per year, very "average" 7157 joined on 2nd May 19007457 joined on 16th April 19017893 joined on 8th May 19028384 joined on 15th April 19038728 joined on 18th January 19049103 joined on 9th January 19059688 joined on 6th October 190610186 joined on 30th September 190710350 joined on 22nd April 190810818 joined on 1st October 190910916 joined on 7th March 191011131 joined on 1st February 191111427 joined on 2st August 191211542 joined on 28th January 191311714 joined on 26th March 191411775 joined on 7th August 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 November , 2013 Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Martin, I take your point. It is difficult to reconcile it with the fact that monthly returns as you have kindly supplied have a column "Number of men with the Army Reserve borne as supplementary", typically c. 1500 to 2000 men for a 2 battalion regiment. I cannot begin to imagine the admin required to move reservist Pte 12345 David Davies RWF on to the books of DLI because he has taken his pick and shovel northeastwards. Can you? I have no idea what the admin entails, but it would likely be less than the admin for men with Reserve obligations settling in Canada and also migh offset having to pay for 12345 Davies to get back from Consett to North Wales. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 November , 2013 Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Sunny Consett is a long way back to Wales - I've travelled from their to South Wales and I'd have thought a man would have avoided it he could by swapping depots. I have seen references to reservists travelling to the top of Scotland to their depot and then being sent straight back south. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2013 Been thinking about young Davies! I have never seen a reference to, what shall we call the category, an Overner? Overner being Davies if he is shifted over to the DLI regular reserve. No comment from Frank Richards regarding overners pitching up at the depot in early August, with their fancy Rifles notions of drill, or their quaint ways of calling CSgts "Sir!" picked up in the Guards, or their heathen behaviour in the Sgts Mess, or their inability to recall the dates of battles past, inter-unit rivalries and hatreds, or their unfamiliarity with slang, jargon, spanish practices, jokes ............. None from John Lucy either, or half a dozen others who might well have enlivened a chapter with such overners. I'm sorry, its a nice theory but it lacks evidence at the moment. So I shall be constructive for a change. Hitherto the unspoken assumption has been that a reservist-rich regiment bobbed along 1902-1914 with the same manning as a reservist poor one. Given that Home battalions were starved of manpower, well well below the 720 man establishment, perhaps the "rich" regiments had Home units nearer to the correct number? This, over a few years, could steadily add 50 or 100 men per annum to the reserve pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 November , 2013 Share Posted 25 November , 2013 R A Lloyd does give a close example. The Life Guards had a large contingent of Reservist on mobilisation who were ex Irish Dragoon Guardsmen. They caused all sorts of trouble and quite upset the Life Guards. If the Cavalry had examples of Reservists gathering in other Regiments' barracks it might indicate others Arms could. It may have been that the Cavalry didn't have paired units so men whose home unit was in India for example, might have been dealt with centrally and allocated out, so it might not be the best of comparisons. However, in this case the 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards were in Tidworth at the outbreak of War so it seems unnecessary to have a large contingent of Irish DGs turn up in London and not be sent to Tidworth.Put simply, if a man could go to Canada and serve his Reserve obligation in Ottawa, what rule or reg was preventing Davies from serving it out in Durham (or Ottawa) rather than Wrexham. What do the Regs say? I assume there would be some guidance on men going off to the Reserves. It is worth exploring if only to eliminate this as a factor. I wonder which Regiments the 3,000 Army Reservists living in Canada had served with.... Something has to explain the large differences, and by extension the degree to which Kitchener men were drawn into the equation. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2013 I shall consult the regulations on Wednesday! Busy tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 November , 2013 Share Posted 26 November , 2013 Edit. I have moved my post on the disparities in available Reservists to the other thread in order to keep this tread focused on the date of arrival of Kitchener men in France and Flanders. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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