Captured Artillery Use on the Western Front

[aiwac]

According to this article on the Russian 1915 'Great Retreat'

http://www.tandfonli...22#.UoqqRsSnofU

some of the captured Russian guns later served the Germans in the West.

This got me to thinking - just how much was captured artillery used on that front? Or were they usually scrapped because of the need for appropriate ammunition?

[cdr]

Well

The Belgian army received German Krupp (IFH 98/09) 105 howitzers from the French after the battle of the Marne.

They received similar pieces from the British army (pieces captured in Champagne and at the Somme)

(Belgian artillery had ordered this artillery piece in Germany before the war. None were delivered )

Carl

hope this helps

[Ron Clifton]

Hello arwad

At Battery Valley on 9 April 1917 (Battles of Arras) two infantry battalions of 12th Division managed to capture 31 German guns, almost the whole artillery of the division opposite them. At least a few of these guns were turned on their former owners but, as you say, the availability of suitable ammunition would normally have made use of enemy guns (by either side) relatively rare.

Ron

[Latze]

An episode from the AEF during their fighting at the Meuse-Argonne:

"A detail from the battery took over and fired a battery of German 77s which were found in position near Vierzy at point (175.7-285.9). It was more or less a question of, "We shot some shots into the air and they fell to earth we knew not where." We were not able to locate the bursts. As we had no range tables, sights or even an elementary knowledge of how the fuses were supposed to work, this was not unexpected. However, if the wishes of the shooters were heard, the Germans must have noticed our fire."

BATTERY "B" OF THE TWELFTH FIELD ARTILLERY DURING THE LATE WAR BY CAPTAIN GEORGE D. WAHL. F.A.

Field Artillery Journal May 1924, p. 221-236

[Latze]

The use of captured artillery by the German army however was quite extensive: in 1916/17 there were 319 Belgian, 173 French, 10 British and 872 Russian guns in use at the front. Most of the ammunition came out of the captured Belgian, French and Russian fortresses. At times more than 70 different types were in use and supplied with German range tables, etc.

The book about German heavy artillery by Schirmer were I draw this from ("Das Gerät der schweren Artillerie") lists 57 models that were used (curiously included a "japanese light field howitzer") but not the Krupp howitzers made for the Belgians (probably these were not deemed captured weapons). It also lists 36 models that were discarded because of limited ammunition stocks. Most of these are Italian pieces.

regards

Matt

Edited 22 November , 2013 by Latze

[green_acorn]

As Matt has written the German use of captured artillery on the Western front was extensive, so much so that they had to develop unique military symbols for each type of gun in use. The British publication translating these symbols was: SS 745 Conventional Signs employed on Maps of the Siegfried Line (Issued by the Second German Army in the Spring of 1917.) - Issued September 1918. The unique symbols were most probably an aid to their logistician's trying to supply each of the different ammunition types.

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

Germany made use of he following types of captured artillery

Russian 10.67 K77

Italian 10.2cm motorised guns

Belgian 15 cm sK

Russian 15 cm sK

Russian 15.2 cm sFH

British 60 pounders

British 8 inch Howitzers

Italian 21 cm mortars

Italian 30.5 cm mortars

Belgian 21 cm mortars

French 22 cm mortars.

French 30.5 cm railway guns

French 37 cm railway guns

source Herbert Jager German Artillery of World War One

[Latze]

Here are some scans from the book.

Map Symbols.pdf

Models in Use part 2.pdf

[Latze]

Here is the rest...

Sorry, the first part of the 'models in use' can't be uploaded (even after reducing it to 150 kb).

Number of Guns.pdf

[SFayers]

I seem to recall in "The London Gunners - The story of the H.A.C. Siege Battery in action" Kingham describes his battery (309 (HAC) Siege Battery) utilising captured German artillery pieces against their former owners during the 'last 100 days' in 1918. I'll have a check and see if I can find the reference.

cheers

Steve

[SFayers]

My memory is not as good as it was; not 309 (HAC) Siege Battery but, in fact, 303 Siege Battery. Verbatim from "With a Siege Battery in France - 303 Siege Battery, R.G.A. 1916 - 1919":

"During this rest period [after 15th August 1918] we were ordered to form a complete battery of German 8" (20 cm) and 5.9" (15 cm) Howitzers and guns. Examination of the scattered pieces showed that the 8" Howitzers had been stripped of all moveable parts, and that not one could be fired. We secured one 5.9" gun and four 5.9" Howitzers, transported them by caterpillars to a position near Meharicourt, and got them into action."

In fairness, it's not entirely clear from the text as to whether the gun and howitzers are being fired against the Germans or simply being test-fired.

All the best

Steve

[SFayers]

Interestingly, there is also similar reference in "The history of the 135th Siege Battery R.G.A." in which captured artillery pieces certainly were used against the Germans; here just one example from the text quoted from the diary of Major Heath:

"16th August [1918] - The Brigade arranged for the collection of a number of captured guns, and Captain Phillips was put in charge of a battery of 5.9" howitzers in position near Rouvroy. Lieutenant Gill had charge of a collection of 10 cm guns (including two which we had been using since 8th August) in an advanced position south of Rouvroy. He fired constantly and did some excellent work. The personnel for these Boche batteries was drawn from various batteries in the Brigade."

All the best

Steve

[nigelfe]

German use of captured British guns would have been after Spring 1918.

Some siege btys, most likely those equipped with 9.2 and 8 inch did use captured German guns in the final months, they used lighter and hence more mobile captured German guns. 60-pr and 6 in How were sufficiently mobile.

[Chris Henschke]

SS 168 NOTES ON EMPLOYMENT OF SERVICEABLE GUNS AND TRENCH MORTARS CAPTURED FROM THE ENEMY was issued in June, 1917 for guidance.

A "blue book of hostile guns" was also promulgated, which included range tables.

[aiwac]

Thanks so much for all your replies.

The large number of captured artillery and ammo at the WF reinforces an impression I've formed of Germany in WWI:

At least when it came to resources and even weapons, Germany was often heavily reliant on "war spoils", often non-renewable ones,

to continue the war. This includes guns from Russia (and France and Belgium), mineral resources and labor from France and Belgium,

oil and food from Romania, and requisitions from Eastern Europe. It must have felt very "hand-to-mouth" in some respects.

Obviously this isn't the whole story, but it feels like a big part.

[bob lembke]

Several comments:

As Matt mentioned in post #5, the majority of the captured guns used by the Germans were Russian. At the capture of the big Russian fortresses, the Germans sometimes captured as many as 1300 guns at one fortress, and 1,000,000 shells. Usually the Russians did not make an effort to destroy the materiel before the fall. Some of the guns were junk, but some were excellent guns. In the German official history series Schlachten the detailed diagrams in the rear of the TOE of the German units involved in the rear of the books they often lay out gun by gun which of the artillery were captured weapons. So much ammo was captured that this employment made a lot of sense. I have a narrative of a Feuerwerk-Offizier (Explosives Officer) who was put to work supervising shipping west the useful ammo captured at one location; every day he got two trains of 50 cars each out and headed toward the Western Front; he did this for one or two months.

The famous Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 Rohr used at least 4 or 5 different guns in their infantry gun battery, and their most favorite was a Russian 76.4 mm parapet gun, designed to be manhandled into firing position; the Germans further modified it, for example mounting better German sights. My father was detailed to this unit to provide flame-thrower support, and his most specific memory he gave me about S=B Rohr was the wonderful efficiency of the infantry gun battery, who with three quick shots would destroy a MG nest.

Replying to aiwac in the post above, my grand-father, a Feuerwerk-Hauptmann in the General=Kommando of the III. RK in Belgium, on the basis of a telegram from the Ministry of War, was sent out with cars and an escort to look for materiel, especially munitions, and he found the secret Belgian national stockpile of explosives, seemingly with his nose, he could smell the decomposing nitrates, and due to his find 1300 railcars of explosives were sent back to Germany, he received a citation saying that that was enough to keep the German Army fighting on both fronts for three months, which bridged the gap from when the German nitrates ran out, and the time the great chemist Linde developed the process to make explosives out of atmospheric nitrogen, ie, out of air. Thus it could be argued that he was responsible for WW I lasting past 1915. (He got the EK II and the EK I in short order.)

bob lembke

[SFayers]

Facinating bob - thanks for posting.

[Latze]

I would agree that Russian fortress artillery was one of the main sources of captured artillery in the German army. But I just found another nice example concerning French guns:

Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 3 (part of 6. ID) captured three French "Soixante-Quinze" near Soisson early November 1914. These were formed into a new battery within the regiment. A couple of days later another french gun was sent to the regiment and a training course was held as more guns were expected to be used in the future (the text implies that this course was not held by the regiment but does not say if the division, corps or army was responsible).

One big factor in using the captured French guns in this period was the fact that German ammunition had to be rationed but French ammunition was plentiful.

(All this from the regimental history, p. 55ff)

regards

Matt

PS: if anybody wants the missing scan just sent a PM