Bayonet Markings

[Khaki]

Can anyone assist interpreting the following markings on the guard of a French Chassepot bayonet, they are as follows

39.R.L.4.151, note the R is in the italic? style. Could be German markings?

thanks

khaki

[shippingsteel]

They do very much look like German markings to me. The style is correct and the format matches so yes German markings.

The italic R should be for a Reserve Infanterie Regiment, while the block L should stand for Landwehr, not sure how that fits.?

So 39th Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment, then whatever the L stands for in this case ... then 4th Kompanie with the Waffen Nr.151

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Is it possible that the L is actually an I? so 39.R.I.4.151 which would make it fit with S>S' interpretation more precisely?

Chris

[Khaki]

Thanks L>L and Chris,

I am just about to go and have a look at the bayonet and scabbard now, it was another tip from a friend in a local gun store and he is holding it for me. He is not a collector as such, so he may have read it wrong regarding the 'L', we shall see shortly and will let you know.

thanks

khaki

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hello Khaki,

In German Bayonets Vol. 111 Anthony Carter gives quite a lot of information about these bayonets. Assuming you gave the correct marking in your first post, your bayonet is marked to the Prussian Reserve-Landwehr-Bataillon Nr. 39. According to Anthony Carter, the Germans captured hundreds of thousands of French Chassepot needle fire rifles and their bayonets during the Franco-Prussian War and they were taken into German service.

The markings on your bayonet are those of the pre-1888 Landwehr-Regimenter, and should not be confused with the 1914-18 Landwehr-Infanterie-Regimenter. In the German service the bayonets were unaltered except for the bayonets' frog strap loops which were removed and replaced by long German style studs. Many were painted black over a red lead undercoat.

According to Anthony Carter by 1914, although Germany had sold off some of these bayonets as surplus, there were still large quantities in storage and thousands more were acquired from the stocks of arms dealers. Some of those were modified to fit the Gewehr 88 during the early part of the Great War.

Your bayonet is an interesting find and should be examined to see whether it has been modified to fit the Gewehr 88.

Hope the above is of interest. will be pleased to provide further information if required.

Regards,

Michael H.

[Khaki]

Thank you Michael,

I now have the bayonet in my hands and observations are as follows.

manufactured at Mutzig Marz 1868

German marking on quillion 39.R.I.4.151 (R in italic)

German makings on scabbard ? 607.9.9 also 32.L.1.4.6

German inspector markings above and below 2 lines on German style frog stud

Three inspectors markings (French?) on quillion, crown over C in circle/ crown over M in circle/ crown over B in circle

Two inspectors marks at top of blade by guard, Crown over G in circle/ Crown over C in circle, both very small

French serial number five digit prefixed by a D on guard

No apparent modifications for fitting to Gewehr 88, grip does not have machined step in it and muzzle ring is not countersunk

Overall condition VG++ blade clean and has not been sharpened no apparent neglect or abuse, scabbard also very good.

for your thoughts

khaki

[shippingsteel]

German marking on quillion 39.R.I.4.151 (R in italic)

for your thoughts

khaki

Just following on from Michael's earlier comments, yes it is particularly important to first establish the date range of these markings as they changed over time.

These markings being on the Chassepot bayonet mean they would be much earlier than what we are normally accustomed to with the GW era marking format.

One thing which the earlier format did feature was the use of Roman numerals in the string to designate battalion number and in some cases the Armee Korps.

So this marking above ( 39. R. I. 4. 151 ) will be for the 39th Reserve Infanterie Regiment, 1st Battalion, 4th Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 151 assuming correct format.

Cheers, S>S

[Khaki]

Thanks S>S,

I wonder then what German rifle it was intended to fit, as it doesn't fit the G71, G71/84 or G88, possibly it was just worn as a sidearm.

khaki

ps, A little bit disappointing as I thought it was a GW variant bayonet, but no matter its still a fine looking piece.

(k)

[shippingsteel]

The clincher here would be if the bayonet has been modified by the Germans to become an 'ersatz' bayonet. With such modification, yes a GW variant bayonet.

Without modification or GW period style markings, then from an earlier encounter with the French, captured with the matching rifle & reissued to 2nd line troops.

Cheers, S>S

[Khaki]

The only 'modification' to the bayonet (that I can tell) is the addition of the markings, the modification to the scabbard is the frog button and markings. Of course I don't know how long the bayonet and scabbard have been together. So unless the Germans issued a captured Chassepot rifle & bayonet as a complete unit at some time, or the bayonet was simply worn as a sidearm (sword) I just don't know. Maybe some time someone will come up with new evidence.

thanks to all

khaki

[Khaki]

. So unless the Germans issued a captured Chassepot rifle & bayonet as a complete unit at some time, or the bayonet was simply worn as a sidearm (sword) I just don't know. Maybe some time someone will come up with new evidence.

thanks to all

khaki

based on opinions that I have since read, it does appear that early German marked unaltered Chassepot bayonets were used as I have noted above.

(k)

[trajan]

Williams, Part II, p.427, shows a group of soldiers 'in reserve' in 1915, all with Chassepot rifles, and one wearing an unaltered Chassepot in an unaltered Chassepot scabbard - which suggests to me that they might just be Bavarian. BTW, does your scabbard have the 'regular' German teardrop type frog-stud or the longer pointed 'Baden' variant?

[trajan]

Home and kids are out...

Carter EB 103 is the unaltered Chassepot, and of these with markings in the books that I have the clear majority have Landwehr markings. Of the modified Chassepot (Carters EB 104 on), a slight majority are Landwehr markings.

[Khaki]

Williams, Part II, p.427, shows a group of soldiers 'in reserve' in 1915, all with Chassepot rifles, and one wearing an unaltered Chassepot in an unaltered Chassepot scabbard - which suggests to me that they might just be Bavarian. BTW, does your scabbard have the 'regular' German teardrop type frog-stud or the longer pointed 'Baden' variant?

Hello Trajan, sorry I don't have the bayonet reference book. but I measured the frog-stud at 2.25", much longer than the standard German examples that I have.

thanks

khaki

[trajan]

This is the 'Baden-Wurttemberg' type frog stud, taken from http://comissionrifle.blogspot.com.tr/2009_09_01_archive.html

That webpage shows this frog stud on the scabbard for another unmodified Chassepot, made “Mre Imp le De Mutzig Juillet 1869”, marked 68. L. II. 2. 152. for 68th. Landwehr (Infantrie Regiment). 2nd Btln, 2nd company, 152nd weapon.

Williams Part 2, p. 431 shows two undated photographs of soldaten (mit covered pickelhauben) with unmodified Chassepot bayonets, on Gras rifles(!). Basically you have quite a nice and unusual bayonet and scabbard ther!

Happy to help in any way!

[Khaki]

Hello again Trajan,

thanks for the research, yes that's the frog-stud on my scabbard, was Baden-Wurttemberg part of the Prussian or Bavarian Armies ?

thanks

khaki

[trajan]

...was Baden-Wurttemberg part of the Prussian or Bavarian Armies ?

Prussia, if I remember rightly - doubtless I'll soon be corrected if wrong! B-W basically followed Prussia rules and regulations but Bavaria (although fitting their regiments into the Prussian system?) maintained a separate identity with weapons etc..