Angell Posted 17 November , 2013 Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Horace H A Angell- Sapper Royal Engineers 148401, mic -British and Victory. No trace of Service or pension records. Birth year-1997. Hi, I'm not sure if I have posted this in the right forum, but.......I have posted a 1918 photo of Horace. I feel silly asking this but is he wearing breeches? He also has on a bandolier and no belt. (Did all RE sappers wear these?) Does any of this indicate that he may have been mounted? (He doesn't have spurs or riding boots on though). Has his cap had the wire taken out? I've been fortunate to have been told that Horace is wearing 2 years o/seas and 2 years good conduct chevrons, and his cap badge is of course that of the RE. I've downloaded a copy of the medal rolls to find soldiers with similar numbers. Their mic's show they had a connection to Fenny Stratford. I found a RE soldier with the number 148400 John Bruton. He has surviving pension records which show he attested 14.12.1915 and was sent to the RE Signals, at Fenny Stratford, Bucks. (Horace lived in Fenny Stratford). Am I able to then deduce that Horace would have joined at Fenny and at the same time as this man? However there are no signals armbands showing in Horaces photo (blue and white). The family story is that Horace was gassed. He was on home leave for the first time as at 16.10.1917.Would this indicate he was gassed around this time?? or on ordinary leave? I have not had the Centre for Bucks. studies 1918 absent voters list looked up -pretty expensive when you are converting NZ dollars. Sooo many questions, with so few answers... (Photo turned out clear, but I haven't learnt to crop them properly yet). Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsjbl Posted 17 November , 2013 Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Susan On examining the photo more closely, there seems to be something like a name badge sewn above the breast pocket. I don't think it is a medal ribband, is it more clear on the original as I have never seen a name band on uniforms of this age? Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsjbl Posted 17 November , 2013 Share Posted 17 November , 2013 I am not an expert on uniforms but he is wearing puttees and the bandolier and from my own research into a couple of Australian Signal units, part of the Engineers at the time, this seems pretty standard. He also has what I think is a wound strip on his left sleeve and there is something on his right sleeve which MAY be a couple of inverted chevrons, indicating at least 2 years overseas service. I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be along before long to enlighten us! Cheers Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angell Posted 17 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Hmmm, I've checked the original and it almost looks like it was the way the uniform is sewn. This may sound weird, but it kind of looks like a 'breast plate' of material is sewn on the upper chest above the pocket, and it's not a strip at all? It is same on the other side. But I could be totally wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 17 November , 2013 Share Posted 17 November , 2013 The Service Dress tunic often puckers along that line, as there is tension created by the pocket flap, and the shoulder 'rifle' patch sewn just above it. The cut of the tunic is quite good, and he has almost certainly put a hook and eye into the coller to make it 'stand', and look smarter. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 17 November , 2013 Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Hi I'd say Royal Engineers, good conduct stripe on left sleeve, puttees tied at the ankle and not below the knee indicates that he is of mounted service, soft cap should date it from 1916 onwards regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 18 November , 2013 Share Posted 18 November , 2013 Just a thought, similar badge on a previous post I suggested Dorset Yeomanry, and the stripe on the left sleeve is 'good conduct'. Certainly a horseman long shot on the Yeomanry. the previous shout was I think orrect. Tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 18 November , 2013 Share Posted 18 November , 2013 Susan The bandolier indicates that he was a mounted sapper. Not all men in mounted units wore spurs and it may be that he was a member of a cable section which laid signal cables from a horse drawn team. Two men drove the horses, a second pair of men rode on a limber directly behind the horse team, one was a telegraphist and the other assisted in putting up poles etc. Behind them, on a separate limber, one mans fed out the cable and his assistant controlled the brakes and winding gear. About ten behind this team came a mounted linesman with a crook stick who guided the cable to avoid obstacles. Behind this man came another mounted rider who push the cable onto or behind hedgerows and bury cables where it crossed other roads. I can't guarantee that this was his job of course, but it will have been something like that. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliot#1 Posted 18 November , 2013 Share Posted 18 November , 2013 Just a thought, similar badge on a previous post I suggested Dorset Yeomanry, and the stripe on the left sleeve is 'good conduct'. Certainly a horseman long shot on the Yeomanry. the previous shout was I think orrect. Tony P The Dorset Yeomanry also wore a green band around there caps, which is not present here. Regards, Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angell Posted 19 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2013 Susan The bandolier indicates that he was a mounted sapper. Not all men in mounted units wore spurs and it may be that he was a member of a cable section which laid signal cables from a horse drawn team. Two men drove the horses, a second pair of men rode on a limber directly behind the horse team, one was a telegraphist and the other assisted in putting up poles etc. Behind them, on a separate limber, one mans fed out the cable and his assistant controlled the brakes and winding gear. About ten behind this team came a mounted linesman with a crook stick who guided the cable to avoid obstacles. Behind this man came another mounted rider who push the cable onto or behind hedgerows and bury cables where it crossed other roads. I can't guarantee that this was his job of course, but it will have been something like that. TR Brilliant! I am so grateful for the input from everybody. Now I definitely know Horace was a Sapper in a mounted unit! This could all make sense, because interestingly enough Horace's fathers occupation is shown in the 1911 census as a horse keeper in Fenny Stratford, Buckinghamshire. There was also a signal depot at Fenny Stratford-Staple Hall.(Also Horace's younger brother later travelled for work laying cables with Perilli). However, should he be wearing the signals 'armband' of blue and white if Horace was in an RE Signals, cable company? Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 19 November , 2013 Share Posted 19 November , 2013 Susan, reading and enjoying your post for interest it occurs to me that your photo' does not show signaller's, crossed flags, qualification badge. It may be that these men wore the armband to be easily identifiable as able to send/receive signals. An expert will be able to clarify I'm sure. Also many photo's of signallers, with crossed flags, in studio setting have no armband so maybe only worn in the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old sparky Posted 19 November , 2013 Share Posted 19 November , 2013 Would the entire cable laying team necessarily be 'signallers'. Maybe these teams had no role in sending or receiving signals other than providing the wherewithal. Just a thought. Peter B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Susan If he was at the Signal Depot, he may not have been qualified when the photo was taken. Also, Peter makes a good point. If he was with a cable team he may well have had a job within it which did not require a signalling qualification. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Here is a photograph of 69114 Lance Cpl William Thomas Downes (served as Griffiths), Royal Engineers, who served with the 35th Signal Company. He was a Cable team Linesman and is carrying a "Crooked stick" as mentioned above by Terry. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angell Posted 24 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2013 Fabulous photo Sepoy. Thanks to everyone that replied. I think I may be on the right track now (well I hope so)...so I guess the next step might be to look at surrounding regimental numbers........Again thanks. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickg Posted 5 December , 2013 Share Posted 5 December , 2013 Hi there was a qualification of 'Driver RE' in the engineers - basically a trained horse handler whos job was purely to handle and look after the horses - he would wear the 50 round 1903 pattern bandolieras teh 1908 web and the later 1914 leather equipment was not issued to maounted troops - he may not neccessarily be attached to a signals company as all RE units had horses and drivers within thier establishment. The puttees are correctly wound from the knee to the ankle to avoid chafing against the horse/saddle and coming undone - he would have worn spurs strapped on over his boots but possibly not for a studio visit as they were awkward to walk in - particularly down steps etc. He has an overseas service and good conduct stripe and as mentioned earlier the strip above the pockets is merely where the top of the pocket flap and the bottom of the shoulder patch almost meet Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Dragoon Posted 7 January , 2014 Share Posted 7 January , 2014 (edited) pictures courtesy of PBH a forumn member Edited 7 January , 2014 by Suentimb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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