Peter Woodger Posted 16 November , 2013 Share Posted 16 November , 2013 Hi According to the original 1922 register for Contay cemetery there were 40 German pows who died of wounds buried in the cemetery. They were buried in plot IV row F, plot VII row G and one in plot II. According to “Silent Cities” produced 1n 1929 they were still there but the wrong information could have been given to the author Hurst as the CWGC on line plan for Contay still shows the Germans as present. Does anyone know when the Germans were removed or even better can anyone advise where I should look to find this information as same situation occurs in at least Varennes and Puchevillers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen binks Posted 19 November , 2013 Share Posted 19 November , 2013 Peter, I cannot help with the date but i spent some time recently in the CWGC archives and came across the term "Blacklisted Communes". One of the issues was that they did not want German's buried in their communes and were consequently removed; which ones I did not research, but some of the files were as late as the 1930's Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 20 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Steve, That is very interesting, I always thought that these late moves of Germans from cemeteries were at the request of the Germans but this introduces a new possibility. Thank you for that. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Hello, The French gathered (almost) all German cemeteries and graves to the current concentration cemeteries from 1919 to the early 1920's. The graves from Contay were removed by the French grave services just as they removed German graves from all other smaller cemeteries (no black list or anything involved, the communes had nothing to say in this). According to the Versailles treaty, the Germans had nothing to say about their cemeteries, and it was the french who decided that they should do for the german graves the same thing as they did for their own dead: concentrating the graves into large concentration cemeteries with most of the unidentified in mass graves (you can even find the cemeteries in a lot of cases next to each other). The german graves from Puchevillers and Varennes were also moved to Fricourt by the French around 1920. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 20 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Jan Again that is interesting. Contay, Varrennes and Puchevillers did not issue their register until 1922 and the Germans, and in some cases French were still said to be there. We can probably ignore what "Silent cities" says in 1929 and certainly ignore the current plans for the 3 cemeteries which still show the Germans present. Do you have reference to a Primary source that quotes when the Germans and or French were removed? Extending the subject, do you know what happened when British clearance teams in 1919 came across German bodies either buried or unburied. Did they transport them directly to cemeteries designated by the French? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Hello, I don't have a primary source for an exact date (I know that most of the works in France were finished by 1923-1924 though). I'll check some German information booklets from the 1920s and 1930s tonight and see whether I can find something more there. Official information until +/- 1925 was very difficult to obtain for the Germans. In Belgium, German officials from the embassy were in most cases not even allowed to officially visit their graves to report about what was going wrong. The British teams in Belgium had open German cemeteries which they used to bury any Germans they found during their work. They even established a few new German cemeteries. I don't know about France though, I guess they had to use any open German cemeteries designated by the French. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 I have a couple of primary sources for Belgium from German War Grave commission. For 1930, "Gheluwe 57 (Nachtigall)" , Gheluwe "Koelberg I" and "Gheluwe Koelberg II": still not relocated and the state of the cemeteries was miserably. So were both cemeteries "Praetbosch" (later concentration cemetery Vlaadslo I guess). "Poelkapelle" not concentrated but in good shape. "Langemark-Nord", primary source says that for 1930 bodies were still buried daily, relocated from smaller cemeteries. "Wytschaete.Oosttaverne", it is said that the English cared well for the German cemetery and that new bodies were interred daily (but still not relocated to one of the later concentration cemeteries). Belgium 1928, "Leffinghe" (Ostende) withered, unrecognizable crosses, grave mounds all flattened from 10 years weather conditions, overgrown by weeds and shrubs For France 1928, "Wavrin", well maintained by friendly French gardeners, "La Maison blanche" (close to Souchez), , extremely well cared for by the French gardeners, "Salomé", "Illies", "Wicres" and "Fournes", smaller cemeteries from 1915+ (all close to La Bassée), in good shape and maintained by French gardeners, all already concentration cemeteries, as was 1928 "Sailly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 20 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2013 Thank you both for your inputs. My interest is the cemeteries on the Somme where there were substantial distances to reach Fricourt, Rancourt or Proyart. compared with the distance from a search area to the relevant British concentration cemetery. Photographs I have seen show the British using small carts to transport exhumed bodies so I wondered if there was any evidence of collecting points from which the French transported the bodies in Bulk. It seems that on the Somme the policy was varied, there are cemeteries where men who died as POW are still buried with others where they have been removed which is why the input of the communes seemed a possibility. There are examples of bodies brought into concentration cemeteries, the 7 in Serre Road 2 for example and then the British concentrated 70 Germans, 41 of them unknown, into Rossignal Wood cemetery post war which is almost double the number of Commonwealth burials. The French applied the rules more strictly as I cannot recall any Germans in the cemeteries that were in the French clearing area and had British bodies added when the French found them. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 The situation in France was completely different to the situation in Belgium (for an overview of the situation in Belgium, I suggest reading my recently published book about Menen Wald). Fricourt German cemetery was begun by the French in 1920. Usually, Germans buried on British cemeteries during the war, stayed where they were. German bodies found after the war while clearing the battlefield were taken to new (German) concentration cemeteries. Although there are of course always here or there a few exceptions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2013 Share Posted 20 November , 2013 , I suggest reading my recently published book about Menen Wald). The book has just one big flaw: it is written in Dutch which sadly, I do not understand ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 21 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Jan I have heard before that the French started Fricourt in 1920 but the problem is that Commonwealth clearance teams were working from the middle of 1919 so my problem is what happened to the German bodies between then and the start of Fricourt in 1920. The French were clearing the area around Bray-sur-Somme in 1919 and must have had the same problem. The Commonwealth bodies were not exhumed from Proyart CCE until the end of 1922 but German bodies could have been taken there earlier or the German cemetery at Bray could have been used. If either of these was in use I still have the problem of even longer transport distances for bodies found on the Somme battle field. I also cannot read Dutch. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 They may have gathered those bodies on other (temporary?) cemeteries, or on existing German cemeteries. I don't know that as I haven't been busy that much with the situation in France. Diaries of the units involved may perhaps reveal something (as far as anything still exists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 I have a couple of primary sources for Belgium from German War Grave commission. Hi Egbert, are there any online sources for this information? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Hi Egbert, are there any online sources for this information? Roel Roel unfortunately no. I received them from VdK. The reports were published in the respective 1930/1928 VdK-newsletter of which they gratefully sent me copies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Thanks, Egbert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Thanks, Egbert. Do you have any special interest? You can read the 1930 text here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Wow, thanks Egbert. I do have a special interest, but that will be hard to find. I still try to find out where my great-grandfather was buried after he was KIA in may 1918. According to his death notification he was buried north of Kemmel (probably near Kleine Vierstraat). But I doubt this spot ever became a true cemetery, more likely a mass grave. Still I'd also love to read in general what happened to the (German) cemeteries post war. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Still I'd also love to read in general what happened to the (German) cemeteries post war. Roel So than this is the 1927/28 report mentioned earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 21 November , 2013 Share Posted 21 November , 2013 Wow, thanks Egbert. Still I'd also love to read in general what happened to the (German) cemeteries post war. Roel Have you checked out my book? You can check some pages on www.aok4.be ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 22 November , 2013 Share Posted 22 November , 2013 Thanks jan; this looks like a must-buy... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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