Identifying Herbet Smith's Regiment from photo.

[Geoffc]

Hello

Can you help our family with a family history research question.

Herbert enlisted (we think) either in the Camberwell or Windsor area in 1914 when he would have been 18. The enlarged cap badge in the attached photo is not easy to see but its shape might make it identifiable to the experts amongst you? The full picture (which I can't upload at the same time or I'll exceed 250k) shows Herbert standing in a long trench coat and I wonder if it adds much but if I can upload it I will do so if it helps.

Your assistance very much appreciated.

Regards,

Geoff

[Geoffc]

Here are the other shots.

Geoff

[Steven Broomfield]

I'll start the ball rolling with Royal Fusiliers, but that's by no means certain. I daresay someone might be able to search his name in the medal rolls.

[archangel9]

I'll start the ball rolling with Royal Fusiliers

Agreed.

[sw63]

Certainly looks like a flaming grenade.

[johnboy]

Agree, it does look like RF.

[johnboy]

I believe there was an RF recruiting office in Camberwell, probably the Town Hall.

[Geoffc]

Thanks for all your help so far. And so quickly too.

I have only a little family history rumour to add - which was that he served in either the Royal Artillery or the London Rifles or the Guards!

His wife was born in Windsor where the Coldstream Guards have barracks but by 1911 (age 15) she was living in Wandsworth and he (of similar age) in Fulham or Camberwell so more likely he enlisted (and they met) in London?

After the war he spoke of being involved in action in France and being gassed. Ten years after the war he was in Darenth Park Mental Hospital in Kent and stayed as an inpatient until the late 1930's possibly as a victim of shell shock.

Could the cap badge be one of the three regiments I have mentioned? Or can the expert view discount them - in which case it must be the Royal fusiliers?

Best wishes,

Geoff

[mrjustinhayward]

What about Honourable Artillery Company Infantry Battalion?

Difficult to see from picture but might tie in with family story that mentions "artillery"

Justin H

[HERITAGE PLUS]

There is a MiC for Gunner Herbert Smith HAC -

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D5233883

But if he was a Gunner wouldn't his badge be different to that in the photos?

Dave

[ralphjd]

My instinct is it is the badge of the H A C the "flames" are certainly "spread" enough for it to be this regiment. Ralph.

[mrjustinhayward]

Have a good trawl through the war diaries of the HAC if that is the case. OR's are frequently mentioned

Justin H

[Blackblue]

624623 Gunner Herbert George Smith, A Bty 2nd/1st Bn HAC, died on 19 Nov 1918 aged 31. He enlisted in Finsbury and was a resident of Westcliff-on-sea, Essex. Son of George John Smith of Forest Gate, Essex. Husband of Winifred A. Smith of Westcliff-on-sea.

I don't think its him.

Rgds

Tim D

Does he have a middle name at all and where was he born? There are a lot of Herbert Smiths in the Royal Fusiliers. There are also a number in the London Regiment, which had affliated Bns.

[johnboy]

Without any firm info it looks that you may be a non starter. If the cap badge is Royal Fusiliers it will not give a clue to the battalion. I have gone through the first 300 MIC's for Herbert.

Herbert J RF 3468, 547677 and 281223

Herbert RF 382840

There are also LOADS for London Regiment.

You kmay be able to find a service record on ancestry, It may show place of enlistment. If anything matches your info you could go further. It will be very time consuming!

[Geoffc]

Hi

Thanks for your continuing efforts. on my behalf.

He was Herbert William Smith born 1896 and I am on Ancestry and have searched there for military information but can't find him. His cap badge was my only other way of trying to identify his regiment and see if they still held service records for him. I have asked his two surviving children - now in their 80's - for any other pictures of him in uniform but no success there so far. Again, family history rumour says he was a batman to ? but there is no further information.

I am grateful to all of you how have tried to help me so far.

Geoff

[Blackblue]

Do you know place of birth and parents names?

[johnboy]

He was Herbert William Smith born 1896 and I am on Ancestry and have searched there for military information but can't find him.Q That's what I mean. So many Herbert Smiths, but without a concrete fact how do you know that you haven't found him.?

You would need to go through ALL service records for Herbert W Smith, and if any have his address as the one you have got that should be him.You need to establish which Regiment he was in.

Sometimes it is best to forget 'family' rumour at this stage.

[wheelsjbl]

I have had a very quick go at trying to fix and enhance the image the image in an attempt to see if I could get the hat badge clearer. Unfortunately the image as posted is not high enough resolution to do much with.

Brian

second picture

[Stebie9173]

There are one or two London absent voters lists online - these are the Herbert William Smiths shown:

53 Allfarthing Lane, Wansdworth, SW 18 - 7823 Pte 5th Reserve Battalion Guards Machine Gun Regiment

42 Ironmill road, Wandsworth, SW18 - Private, 205912 4th Bedfordshire Regiment

133a Blackfriar's Road, Southwark - Private, 437731, 697th Agricultural Company, Labour Corps

A long shot, but do details any match?

Steve.

[Geoffc]

Hi Brian

I can post a higher res image if that helps but 250kb seems to be the maximum the site allows.

Hi Blackblue

Herbert's parents were Samuel and Elizabeth Smith. He was born in Camberwell 26th August 1896. In the 1901 census I found the family at 136 Camberwell Road with Herbert oddly noted as aged 2 so he could have been born in 1899. I can't remember my source for his birth in 1896 as I type.

Hi Stebie 9713

Thanks for these addresses but as yet I can't find 1911 census address for Herbert to give an accurate address but those address you have supplied will be worth me researching and the absent voters list was new to me so I've learnt something there., Thanks.

[MBrockway]

Possibly 7th Londons (the Shiny Seventh)? Pre-Haldane they were a volunteer battalion of the King's Royal Rifles, so might account for the family legend about the 'London Rifles'?

Not sure if the Shiny Seventh's flames were as 'bushy' as in the OP's photos though.

[wheelsjbl]

Geoff

I have sent you a PM re the photographs

Brian

[Geoffc]

Hi Everyone,

Brian has very helpfully enhanced my greatcoat shot of Herbert William Smith and it makes the cap badge a little easier to distinguish? Brian wasn't sure so I simply ask if it is more recognizable to you.

I have found a second photo (unfortunately a low quality scan - I'm working on better a better one) which Brian has enhanced as far as he is able given the quality but he points out to me Herbert is wearing a different cap badge. There is no family history of Herbert serving in two regiments - only the London Regiment or London Rifles as mentioned above.

Any help to identify either badge is much appreciated.

Geoff.

[johnboy]

Could be Royal Fusiliers.

[MBrockway]

The new image is very grainy, but there's a possibility it shows the Paschal lamb of the Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment.

22nd and 24th battalions London Regiment (The Queen's) were historically affiliated to the Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment and wore that badge.

The 'London Rifles' usually refers to the City of London Rifles (6th battalion London Regiment) or the London Rifle Brigade (5th battalion London Regiment). Neither 5/LR nor 6/LR had a flaming grenade cap badge.

6/LR (Rifles) 5/LR (London Rifle Brigade)

7th battalion London Regiment, nicknamed the 'Shiny Seventh', wore a flaming grenade badge and were historically affiliated to the KRRC, so might be considered 'rifles'. When the LR battalions were re-affiliated to line regiments in 1916 however, 7/LR transferred to the Middlesex Regiment.

7/LR

The flames on your man's badge perhaps look too broad for the Shiny Seventh though.

1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th battalions London Regiment were all affiliated to the Royal Fusiliers and (IIRC) all wore fusilier flaming grenade badges. Even these four 'fusilier' battalions had their origins in the rifle volunteer movement with 3/LR and 4/LR both having periods as Volunteer Battalions to the KRRC (3/LR - months only) and the Rifle Brigade (4/LR - 1881-1904). These four battalions all wore the broader flamed Royal Fusiliers grenade.

1-4/LR (Royal Fusiliers)

Since family tradition only has him in the London Regiment, a hypothesis that your Herbert Smith served in 7/LR or 1-4/LR (fusilier badge) and also in 22 or 24/LR (Paschal lamb badge) is probably worth investigating further.

NB you should still continue investigating the non-London Regiment lines of inquiry mind.

Cheers,

Mark