Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 (edited) I'm helping a friend to research his g/grandfather who was KIA on 28 June, 1917, and is buried in Brandhoek Military Cemetery, Vlamertinghe, Belgium. His details are: KEIRS, David, Pte 147902, 225th Tunnelling Coy, R.E., formerly 3812 Royal Irish Rifles. His MIC (attached) does not show with which Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles he served, and SDGW shows that he enlisted in Dublin. I have searched ancestry (spit) but did not find any Service Record. I wonder if any R.I.R. experts might point me to where I could find which Battalion he served. I'm hoping that this will lead to the Battalion War Diary. Edited 12 November , 2013 by Tom Lang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverFox100 Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Hi Tom I have the 2nd battalion RIR from Aug 1914 to Sept 1915. This battalion was transferred to 74th Infantry Brigade - 25th Division on 26/10/15. I also have some war diaries of the 25th division and I will let you know if there is any more RIR in those. Let me know if you want any info from these I have noted already. Regards. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 His death was while he was with 255 Tunnelling Company. There is a weekly record of what they were doing in National Archives on this link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Skip the last one, you have mis-transcribed his unit. CWGC shows 225 Tunnelling (and not 255). There were no other 225 Tunnelling deaths that day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 The entry date on his mic 3/6/15 means he could only have been sent to either the 1st or 2nd Battalions. They were the only Royal Irish Rifles units in F&F at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Skip the last one, you have mis-transcribed his unit. CWGC shows 225 Tunnelling (and not 255). There were no other 225 Tunnelling deaths that day My apologies for the typo (I've corrected it), and thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 The entry date on his mic 3/6/15 means he could only have been sent to either the 1st or 2nd Battalions. They were the only Royal Irish Rifles units in F&F at that time. His R.I.R. number 3812 is shown to have been issued on 21 Jan 1893: http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/royal-irish-rifles-1st-2nd-battalions.html So he may have originally served some term of service, then was in the reserves. But thanks for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Hi Tom I have the 2nd battalion RIR from Aug 1914 to Sept 1915. This battalion was transferred to 74th Infantry Brigade - 25th Division on 26/10/15. I also have some war diaries of the 25th division and I will let you know if there is any more RIR in those. Let me know if you want any info from these I have noted already. Regards. Mike Thanks Mike. It's too early for me to answer you, until I can find out in which Battalion he served. His R.I.R. number 3812 was issued on 21 Jan 1893, so it has to be 1st or 2nd (my guess). http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/royal-irish-rifles-1st-2nd-battalions.html But I will get back to you on the offer of the Diaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 His R.I.R. number 3712 was issued on 21 Jan 1893, so it has to be 1st or 2nd (my guess). Tom, this has really nothing to do with it. He was sent to the 1st or 2nd because there was no other RIR battalions in France to be sent to in June 1915. I think the only way to really determine which battalion is if someone could look up the medal roll at Kew for you. Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Tom, this has really nothing to do with it. He was sent to the 1st or 2nd because there was no other RIR battalions in France to be sent to in June 1915. I think the only way to really determine which battalion is if someone could look up the medal roll at Kew for you. Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near there. I've passed this information to the family to get the Medal Roll pages. It is important to note that the MIC Roll references have the prefix 'R.E.'. His R.I.R. number 3812 was issued in 1893. The 1st Bn R.I.R. went to F & F in Nov 1914. The 2nd Bn R.I.R. went to F & F in Aug 1914. His MIC shows he entered F & F on 3rd June 1915. Is it possible that as a 'reserve' R.I.R. man, he was 'trained' by the R.E. and seconded into the R.E. Tunnelling Coy? He may not have served again with the R.I.R. The MIC has the small 'x' surrounded by dots to indicate the Regiment to which they were awarded. But the prefix is to the R.E. Roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 I've passed this information to the family to get the Medal Roll pages. It is important to note that the MIC Roll references have the prefix 'R.E.'. The MIC has the small 'x' surrounded by dots to indicate the Regiment to which they were awarded. But the prefix is to the R.E. Roll. Just seen that Tom. Do you think that means he went straight to the RE in Fance without being posted to the RIR in theatre first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 Just seen that Tom. Do you think that means he went straight to the RE in Fance without being posted to the RIR in theatre first? I just don't know at this time. Hopefully I'll get some answers here (as always). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 12 November , 2013 Share Posted 12 November , 2013 His R.I.R. number 3812 was issued in 1893. 1. When was he born 2. Have you got him in the various censuses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 12 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2013 1. When was he born 2. Have you got him in the various censuses I'll ask the family for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 14 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2013 His death was while he was with 255 Tunnelling Company. There is a weekly record of what they were doing in National Archives on this link Skip the last one, you have mis-transcribed his unit. CWGC shows 225 Tunnelling (and not 255). There were no other 225 Tunnelling deaths that day corisande, As you alluded, there is a discrepancy in the Company Number. CWGC have '225th Coy' SDGW have '255th Tunn, Coy' SNWM have '255th Tunn. Coy' 225 Coy were a Field Coy known as '225th (Stockton on Tees) Coy'. http://www.1914-1918.net/re.htm They were part of 39th Division who crossed to Le Havre and were concentrated at Blaringhem by 11 March 1916. http://www.1914-1918.net/39div.htm 255 Coy were a Tunnelling Coy formed in January 1916 http://www.1914-1918.net/tunnelcoyre.htm The MIC shows that he entered F & F on 3rd June, 1915, which seems to show that he probably re-joined his R.I.R. Battalion (1st or 2nd), and later transferred into the R.E. The link you provided to the 255 Tunnelling Coy 'Weekly Progress Report' is one of those that are not yet available for download. I don't want to pay for a copy yet, as I have been 'bitten' by the TNA before. I thought that maybe the date his R.E. Number 147902 was issued might give a clue but I can't find the R.E. numbers on http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/p/index.html I am still waiting for answers to some questions I have sent to my friend's family. He is the g/grandson of the deceased. Kindest Regards, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 14 November , 2013 Share Posted 14 November , 2013 His R.I.R. number 3812 is shown to have been issued on 21 Jan 1893: This may or may not be correct - there was often a duplication of service nos. This was why I asked for his dob - it would show you if 1893 was reasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 16 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2013 This may or may not be correct - there was often a duplication of service nos. This was why I asked for his dob - it would show you if 1893 was reasonable corisande, His d.o.b. was 16 May 1880, so he would've only been 12 years old when the R.I.R. 3812 number was issued. The family have him in the census records for 1881, 1891, 1901. He married in 1903, then he is again in the 1911 census age 30. So when he went to France on 3 Jun 1915, he was 35 years of age. The records also show that he was a miner from the age of (at least) 20. Thanks for all the help. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 16 November , 2013 Share Posted 16 November , 2013 When Britain went to war in August 1914, men joining the new service battalions of the Royal Irish Rifles for war-time service only were at first issued with numbers from the same number series above. This system appears to have been discontinued by October 1914 however, each service battalion having been allocated individual number series beginning at 1. Some of these new series commenced as early as September 1914. From the same source as you used to get the earlier date. Why I asked the question of his age, its about the first question you have to ask to make sure you are looking at the "right" service no. for your man. The census then establishes that he was not a regular soldier prior to 1911. From his date of arrival in France it would appear that he enlisted around the end of 1914. Battalions 3 to 16 formed at that time, but that is probably not relevant which he actually joined as he was sent to 1st or 2nd Battalions, as has already been said these were to only ones in France in Jun 1915. So I am afraid you are no further forward at this stage. I think you are getting into the minutiae here of trying to spot which Battalion he could have joined from his service no - but there may have been more than one battalion which could have issued that number before the end of 1914. Then you have to see which of 1st or 2nd he could have gone to on a draft. A lot of supposition ! Your next problem is to decide which of the two tunnelling companies he was more likely to have joined. I guess you have to research both to get an idea which one he could have been in when he died. Personally I put more faith in CWGC han in SDGW, but I am sure others will differ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 16 November , 2013 Share Posted 16 November , 2013 There is a thread at the moment on Tunnellers who died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 17 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Thanks corisande. The 225 was a Field Coy (better known as '225th (Stockton on Tees) Coy'). The 255 was a Tunnelling Coy. I've been trying to work backwards from the time he was KIA with the R.E. but the R.E. are a difficult lot to follow. Tom. On 17/11/2013 at 07:37, corisande said: There is a thread at the moment on Tunnellers who died I saw that thread but didn't want to get too involved until I know which R.E. Coy is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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