Squadron Leader Norman Macdonald Martin

[peters395]

Researching those who served for our village WW1 remembrance project. Norman Macdonald Martin born 25 July 89, Comm 20 Jan 09 in Indian Army,recorded in 19 Punjabis and later 38th KG Own Central India Horse Captain in 1915.Obtained RAC Aviators Cert at CFS Upavon on 7 June 1915. Lost track of him until he joined RAF GD Branch1 April 1918 (but not on a muster roll!). Obtained OBE and later CBE with Z Force in Somaliland 1920. Finally retired Sqn Ldr in1924. Trying to find records of his service pre 1918: eg did he transfer to the RFC pre-1918 after obtaining his pilot's certificate? Any records of his service 1918 -24, squadrons etc? (He seems to have been highly thought of to have been selected for Z Force already with an OBE.) Any help in researching his storyas one of the newly formed RAF would be very welcome.

[nieuport11]

He appears on the March 1916 Army List as a Flying Officer with the RFC, date appears to be 14 Aug 15

Can't see an AIR 76 record or medal card, and he doesn't appear on the March 1916 schedule of officers by unit

[topgun1918]

From various issues of the London Gazette:

Lieutenant N. M. Martin, 38th King George's Own Central India Horse, Indian Army was appointed a Flying Officer on 14 August 1915.

Appointed a Flight Commander 2 April 1916 and to be a Temporary Captain whilst so employed.

Appointed a temporary Major whilst specially employed at Army Hd.-Qrs., India, 23 May 1917.

Maj. N. M. Martin to be. Maj. (A.), from (S.O.), from 20th Nov. 1918 to 29th Dec. 1918 (per London Gazette 31569, page 11919).

Appointed a Staff Officer, 2nd Class (Higher Rate). (Air), 30 December 1918.

Granted a permanent commission as a Major in the RAF on 1 August 1919.

Effective from 1 August 1919, the KING approved his resignation from the Indian Army on appointment to a permanent commission in the R.A.F.

I have a scribbled note that he flew with No 8 Sqn RFC during 1916.

Graeme

[john-g]

If he served with Z Force in the 1920's his RAF record will still be with the RAF and therefore there will not be a AIR76 available.

I have checked for a WO339/374 and cannot find him.

John-G

[topgun1918]

As far as I can establish, Martin was appointed a CBE for his services in Somaliland - I can find nothing to suggest that he had previously been appointed an OBE. The confusion probably emanates from the wording of the announcement in the London Gazette, which I show in full:

CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD.
St. James's Palace, S.W. 1,
12th July 1920.
The KING has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following promotion in, and appointments to, the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, in recognition of distinguished services:-

To be Commanders of the Military Division of the said Most Excellent Order :—

ROYAL AIR FORCE.

Squadron Leader John Oliver Archer, O.B.E. (South Russia).
Squadron Leader Henry Leigh Jackson (Paymaster Lieut.-Commander, Royal Navy). (Omitted in error from the London Gazette of 22nd December 1919, and to bear that date accordingly.)
Squadron Leader Norman Macdonald Martin (Somaliland).
Squadron Leader (A./Wing Comdr.) Arthur Clinton Maund, D.S.O. (South Russia).
Squadron Leader (A./Wing Comdr.) Frederick Frank Minchin, D.S.O. M.C. (India).

There was one promotion (Archer from an OBE to CBE) and four appointments as CBEs.

Graeme

[peters395]

Thank you all for your research - very helpful indeed. Although it falls outside the Great War, I had discovered his Somaliland Award and a very interesting report on this, the first of the RAFs Small Wars in the Gazette 10829 of 5 November 1920 and photos on Flickr. The next issue for me is unravelling his WW1 story in which he is seemingly being pulled in 2 directions - by the Indian Army who "owned" him and his service elsewhere as a pilot. Graeme, I was very interested in your scribbled note re 8 squadron which I understand was in France in 1915. As a novice researcher I would appreciate your help and guidance as to how I can dig further - squadron records, etc and where to find them. Perhaps the RAF has all his personal records in the same file?

KR

Peter

[topgun1918]

Hi Peter

I think you mean Gazette number 32116, covering pages 10829 to 10832 - Gazette number 10829 is for 30 April 1768, a little before our time-frame!

The note regarding No 8 Squadron comes from mention of a "Capt Martin" in Royal Flying Corps Communiqué number 40. He's definitely not the Capt Martin mentioned in Communiqué number 56; this officer was in No 32 Sqn and according to the combat report I have, his initials were "G N".

There should be War Diaries/Record Books for No 8 Squadron at The National Archives. You can search on-line; some records have been digitised and can be downloaded (for a fee) but a lot still haven't so you would need to submit an order for an estimate of the cost of copying etc.

Regards

Graeme

[peters395]

Thank you again Graeme. I copied the top page number (from 10829-32) rather than the gazette! I'll try the National Archives and look forward to a visit.

KR,

Peter

[Airshipped]

Not sure if this helps, but potentially he was the inventor of a type of spark plug?

http://www.google.com/patents/US1669487

There are LG entries in 1909 and 1911 re his commission with the Punjabis, e.g.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28216/pages/479/page.pdf and

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28216/pages/480/page.pdf

Also: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28500/pages/4186/page.pdf

If you check passenger lists on various geneaology sites you've probably some matches in a chap on the P&O ship Khyber in August 1930 (his intended destination being Hong Kong). See also the Rajputana, a P&O ship bound for Bombay in September 1930.

[peters395]

Thank you for the above which gives me some good sources for his early army career. The idea of him being an inventor is certainly interesting, but not my experience of cavalry officers. One for further investigation,however, as are the passenger lists. (His family had USA connections as well.)

Regards,

Peter

[Matthew B.]

Norman Macdonald Martin joined the 38th Central India Horse on the 30th May 1912.

He was the son of Colonel Cunliffe Martin, C.B., who served for many years with the Central India Horse, retiring as Commandant in 1888.

He was an officer of 'B' (Sikh) Squadron when the regiment departed for war on the 10th November 1914. They reached France on the 13th December 1914.

He served in France in 1914/15 but was invalided in late January 1915 and, on being transferred to the RFC on his recovery, did not return to the regiment,

He was not the only CIH officer to serve with the RFC/RAF.

Source : King George's Own Central India Horse by Maj-Gen W. A. Watson.

Matthew

[peters395]

Thank you Mathew. Yes, his father is known to us here as he (and his mother) are buried in our churchyard. They have appeared regularly in local papers during my research and were clearly members of society as the Colonel was a friend of Lord Roberts.

I am now doing all I can to investigate Norman's story, including planing a visit to Kew and have contacted 8 Sqn to see what he did through to the end of WW1 and the Somaliland operations. So, in the meantime I shall hope this entry attracts further attention.

Peter

[Guest mccormackmp@btinternet.com]

Hi, I have been trying to find out about his family. He was married in Dublin 1919 to Ella Todd McCormack (nee Warnock) a widow to Major Campbell McNeill McCormack MC+2 Bar KIA 1918. I am aware Norman Martin was born in Gloucester but have no info beyond 1920. Hope you can help Rgds Mike

[Jagdish]

On 12/11/2013 at 17:33, peters395 said:

Researching those who served for our village WW1 remembrance project. Norman Macdonald Martin born 25 July 89, Comm 20 Jan 09 in Indian Army,recorded in 19 Punjabis and later 38th KG Own Central India Horse Captain in 1915.Obtained RAC Aviators Cert at CFS Upavon on 7 June 1915. Lost track of him until he joined RAF GD Branch1 April 1918 (but not on a muster roll!). Obtained OBE and later CBE with Z Force in Somaliland 1920. Finally retired Sqn Ldr in1924. Trying to find records of his service pre 1918: eg did he transfer to the RFC pre-1918 after obtaining his pilot's certificate? Any records of his service 1918 -24, squadrons etc? (He seems to have been highly thought of to have been selected for Z Force already with an OBE.) Any help in researching his storyas one of the newly formed RAF would be very welcome.

 

[Jagdish]

On 03/12/2013 at 22:49, peters395 said:

Thank you Mathew. Yes, his father is known to us here as he (and his mother) are buried in our churchyard. They have appeared regularly in local papers during my research and were clearly members of society as the Colonel was a friend of Lord Roberts.

I am now doing all I can to investigate Norman's story, including planing a visit to Kew and have contacted 8 Sqn to see what he did through to the end of WW1 and the Somaliland operations. So, in the meantime I shall hope this entry attracts further attention.

Peter

Peter sir...i m search ing for his father Colonel cunliffe martin and mother' Francis mary martin...col. martin was a officer in central india horse....at augur headquarters...a famous historical personalltity here...if any information plj share me...9644272878 my what's up no...i m from India

[Jagdish]

Norman father Colonel cunliffe martin was  a army officer of central india horse.... headquarters at augur.... Western malwa...he participated in second Anglo afgan war.....after returning from war side he... repair a famous shiv temple know n as baba bejnath temple....of agar malwa...you can easily search on google..... everyone know that colonel reconstruct it....local guys want photo of colone and his wife francis mary martin....hope helps from yours side...