Territorial Force

[faithmoulin]

My father (Harold Henry Symons) was 16 when he enlisted on 28 June 1915. He was in the 3rd Enfield Boys Brigade and presumably recruited from there as they seem pretty militaristic and a newsletter of the day says they were proud that 600 ex-members were on active service. However, he was said to have gone with his brother Charlie, (Charles John Symons) who was 23. The date of my Dad's enlistment is just 5 days after Charlie's wedding so that seems to fit.Charlie gave his occupation as Solicitors clerk on his marriage cert. and there is no evidence that he was previously in the army.. My Dad was in the 1st London Heavy Battery RGA, 58th London Division. They went to France on 2 March 1916. This all fits as he told me he served at Amiens and was gassed. He got the Silver War Badge. We've got that and his victory and service medals so have been able to find some things out via Ancestry. What I don't understand is that the only Chas J Symons I can find was a gunner in the RFA. There don't seem to be enlistment records for him.

Is it possible that they went off to war together even though they don't seem to be in the same unit? (I do have a photo of them together in uniform).

I suppose my main question is how did he end up on the Heavy Battery? Did the Boys Brigade have links with particular battalions? On recruitment would the brothers have been separated, or put together?

[faithmoulin]

I would post a photo if I could work out how to do it!

[ss002d6252]

What I don't understand is that the only Chas J Symons I can find was a gunner in the RFA. There don't seem to be enlistment records for him.

Charles may never have served overseas , in which case there would not be a Medal Index Card for him.

How certain are you that they enlisted to the same unit ?

Presumably this is Harold ? - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D5469951

Craig

[kevinrowlinson]

If you go to "more reply options" you can upload your photo (up to 250 kb) and then attach to post.

It would be better if you gave the number that is engraved on the side of your fathers medal. If you think they are 311677 for your father and 687237 for your uncle then neither would indicate that they served with a London Bty. It does not mean that they did not enlist with the London Bde RGA TF however and were later posted to different units.

Kevin

[rolt968]

Did the Boys Brigade have links with particular battalions?

According to Westlake's Territorial Force Cadet Units 1910-1922, there was an Enfield Cadet Battalion, The Boys Brigade affiliated to the Territorial Force but it was not recognised until 15 July 1918 and was not affiliated to any particular unit.

This would not prevent the local Boys Brigade companies from being militaristic or having unofficial connections to particular units.

Roger.

[faithmoulin]

Ah,thanks! I think that is the record for my father,Harold Henry Symons, but the regiment no. I have is one digit different, probably a transcription error on the part of Ancestry. (Kevrow has the same as me, 311677 - TNA record is 911677). I hope to go to the National Archives and see the original some time. I know it is the RGA London because it was on his Silver Badge record.

It is only family oral history (and that from my mother who was not involved) that my father and Charlie went off to the war together. It is an interesting thought that maybe Charlie didn't go abroad.... My father's Silver Badge Record (B320893) gives the discharge unit as London RGA. It also refers to Unit Royal Garrison Artillery (Dover). Date is 19.2.1919.

I have got a photo of them both in uniform, and I now have to find and scan it, because it seems to me I should be able to see the badges and see if Charlie was in the RGA like my Dad or the RFA.

Symons is quite a common name, surprisingly. I am not sure whether the RFA Chas J. Symons is Charlie or not, but we are looking at the same likelihood. I will post the picture when I can.

[faithmoulin]

Thanks Roger. Very helpful.

[kevinrowlinson]

311677 would indicate someone enlisting, or being transferred, into the Northumberland RGA TF.

Kevin

[faithmoulin]

I now attach photos of my father and his brother in uniform. I have also been researching more about the Boys Brigade. If someone can comment on whether Charlie could have been RFA and still be photographed in the same apparent unit, I would be grateful. His uniform and cap badge does look the same to me but I don't have a trained eye. I have been told the lanyard etc on my father (the small young man in the middle of the photo) indicates that he was a bugler (he always said he learned the bugle with the Boys Brigade and used to call the men to reveille etc) and the whip held by Charlie on the more formal photo of just the two of them is because he was a driver. Any comments on that?

Would it be possible to find out where the unit photo was taken? Is it likely to be a training camp?

Many thanks, Faith

[faithmoulin]

I have not been able to upload the second photo to which I refer as it is too large a file. I will try to amend it.

[faithmoulin]

I have now uploaded both photos to the album Men and Women of the Great War, if any of you is willing to have a look. Many thanks,

[kenf48]

The photograph above appears to be a studio portrait, both men are wearing spurs and the bandolier ammunition pouch which together with the white lanyard indicate they were mounted troops. I'm not sure if that's a whip or cane held by the man on the left, it looks more like a cane though that could be a leather switch at the base, but in any event it was probably a studio prop. The man on the right was definitely a bugler, the darker cord with the tassle on the left side of his uniform would have been attached to the bugle to allow him to carry it while on horseback.

As you say the badge appears the same and appears to be Royal Artillery. There are no shoulder titles visible which one would normally expect to see if these were TF soldiers; nor are there any other distinguishing badges such as overseas service chevrons visible.

Typically these photos were taken as keepsakes before soldiers went to war and it may be that it was taken at the end of training and before they were posted and went their separate ways. It may be it was taken by a local studio in Woolwich.

There are similar photos (and a photo of a bugler with bugle!) on this Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Ww1PhotoPostcardsOfTheRoyalArtilleryRgaRfaRha

(Perhaps you could post a link to the other photo?)

Ken

[faithmoulin]

Thanks for that info and also for that link to the FB page, which I liked very much. I will try and find the photos again and then post a link here, but it isn't easy, is it!

[faithmoulin]

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?app=galleryℑ=2420

The brothers are marked with crosses. My dad is the small man in the middle and Charlie is on the left of the photo.

Any comments are most interesting and appreciated.

[kenf48]

Once again, difficult even if it's a smashing photo and what a wonderful thing to have!

Your father is not wearing a bandolier but his bugler's lanyard is again visible, I don't know how significant this is, if at all.

Once again no wound stripes/overseas chevrons/medal ribbons are visible on any of the soldiers suggesting it is a training unit, though equally it could have been taken on arrival overseas. The crew of a RFA 18 pounder was ten men, the crew of a siege battery was much more numerous. There are sixteen in the photo and no officers apart from one NCO, the lance-corporal/bombardier. In the infantry a lance corporal was usually appointed to look after recruits in training, it may be fanciful but he looks among the oldest in the group.

The only other observation is that the photograph appears to have been taken in front of a 'tin hut', although these huts were fairly common there was a relatively famous camp at Lydd which was used by the RGA for training which was know as 'Tin Town Huts' (a google images search will turn up the post card of the huts) whether hut N2A was there or not I don't know. (Lydd ranges are still used today by the Army).

Ken

[faithmoulin]

Thanks very much for those interesting comments. Yes, I am very lucky to have the photos of my Dad's war service. I only acquired the photos after my father's death. He had sent these two postcards to his brother in Canada. That brother returned to the UK in the 1920s and brought the photos with him. They found their way into his daughter's hands, and she gave them to me in the 1990s. I only met her for the first time at my father's funeral because my father had sadly fallen out with his brothers. My mother was astonished to see these photos as she did not know of their existence.