Same regiment numbers for two men - labour corps/RE

[Braithwaite1]

I am assisting a relative in a search on information on his Grandfather, whose name is John Braithwaite - he is listed on his son's birth certificate (born in Lancaster in 1916) as being born in Ulverston in 1885 and in the Labour Corp as a Private with a regiment number of 357342. There is a British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Card with his name in the records that has this number hand-written on it that verifies that information.

We have had advice that this number means the person would have served overseas and would have thus been entitled to the Victory and War Medals, and that he would have become part of the Labour Corps in September 1917 (at Western Command Labour Centre). He was unable to say when he was sent overseas or which company the person with this regiment number was in, and added that many records have been destroyed in any case. To add to the difficulties of finding any information on this man (John Braithwaite) I have found that the same regiment number 357342 is assigned to a William John Hay Jarvis. There are two medal rolls index card to the two different men with the same regiment number stated (handwritten). The information we received above is pertaining to whichever individual actually has this regiment number. Jarvis originally joined up in the Kings Royal KRRC as a Private with the regiment number C/7211 and then later appears to became part of the Royal Engineers.

We are confused as how the same regiment number can appear on two different individual records. If this is actually the number assigned to Jarvis and not Braithwaite the wrong regiment number has been entered on the birth registration. I can't imagine the same number is actually given to two different men so could this be a simple administrave error upon handwriting the Medal rolls index card. If anyone can shed any light on this mystery we would very much appreciate any furthur information or opinion on the matter! I have attached the two Cards.

Many thanks.

[RussT]

The number for Jarvis is for the RE, the same number for Braithwaite is for the LC. Each regiment and Corps had its own numbering sequence so it is very common to see the same number being used for different men. It was only after the GW ended that a unique army number was allocated to an individual.

Russ

[SteveE]

No administrative error, both of the units, Labour Corps and Royal Engineers, could issue the number from their numbering sequences.

At the time these numbers were issued the Army wasn't using the single number to one man numbering scheme so more than one man could have the same number.

Steve

[Braithwaite1]

OK - thanks very much for the information, and so quickly.

We can find nothing for John Braithwaite other than the Medals Card in any official doccumentaion of any kind anywhere (and we are not the only relatives seeking information on him) so will keep searching under that regiment number in the hope we are able to find any more information on this man. I am wondering if his date and/or place of birth may have been incorrectly entered at the registration of his son's birth either inadvertantly or intentionally.

Thanks again for your assistance.

[ss002d6252]

To add to the difficulties of finding any information on this man (John Braithwaite) I have found that the same regiment number 357342 is assigned to a William John Hay Jarvis.

A quirk of the British Army - it wasn't until about 1921 that a man had an 'army number' .

Prior to the individual army number different parts of the army gave numbers in different ways:

In an infantry regiment you would usually have a couple of regular battalions, a special reserve battalions and 3 or 4 territorial battalions - the 2 regular battalions shared (and sometimes the special reserve) a list of numbers for their men so they would generally have unique numbers however the Territorials usually each had their own list of numbers so you would have the number 5/1544 of the 5th Bn and number 6/1544 of the 6th Bn within the same regiment.

Each regiment had their own sequence so 6/1544 of the Durham Light Infantry was different to 6/1544 of the Notts and & Derby

To top if off the whole numbering system for territorial soldiers was changed in early 1917 to remove some of the numbering problems (but not all).

You also then had things such as the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Labour Corps etc who had different numbering schemes.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

I am wondering if his date and/or place of birth may have been incorrectly entered at the registration of his son's birth either inadvertantly or intentionally.

There was a John William Braithwaite registered in Ulverston in June 1886 and a John Preston Braithwaite registered in September 1884

What was the son's name and what was his wife's name ?

Craig

[Braithwaite1]

I hope that the information I provide is not contrary to the forum specifications for this board but this man's WW1 record is the only relevant information we can locate. I have located both the men you mention, however it is only 'John Braithwaite' on the birth certificate - both saying he was born in 1885 in Ulverston. John Preston Braithwaite married Elizabeth Smith in 1914 and also had a Walter Braithwaite in 1917, but in May in Ulverston (the other was born in December 1917 in Warton). So there are two Walter Braithwaites born in 1917, both with a John Braithwaite listed as the father but with different mothers registered. I am not sure of John William Braithwaite as of yet as we have been focusing on John Preston Braithwaite thus far. It is a process of elimination.

The only official doccumentation would be the war history and also a divorce application - made in 1918 by a Mathew Walling (married to Sarah Moorby) who returned from the war that year (he had signed up in April 1915 (Royal Lancaster Regiment # 13185) and found that his wife had had 2 children to another man. We are in the process of trying to obtain that information (we are in Australia). The only other lead we may have is if we can locate any labour corp records other than the Medal Rolls Index Card. This would enable us to track John Braithwaite's presence in Lancashire and when he may have been serving abroad, if at all. We need to try and connect him with Sarah Moorby/Walling at the time of both conceptions.

The information on the birth certificates are as follows:

1. John Braithwaite, born August 1916 at 8 Winders Crt - Monmouth St in Lancaster.

FATHER – John BRAITHWAITE, born abt 1885 Ulverston, Munitions Factory Worker. MOTHER – Sarah WALLING. (this child would have been conceived around Jan 1916).

2. Walter Braithwaite, born 13 December 1917 at 12 Albert St in Warton.

FATHER – John BRAITHWAITE, born 1885 Ulverston, Private Labor Corp, Western Command # 357342, formerly Gas Stoker.

MOTHER – Sarah MOORBY, Housekeeper. (this child would have been conceived around Mar 1917). This child was adopted immediately to family and was raised as Walter Edward Stephenson (died in WW2 in 1944).

Sarah Walling (nee Moorby) went on to reconcile with Mathew Walling in 1920 and emigrate with him and their children, as well as John Braithwaite (jnr) to Australia in 1924. However, this did not last and she left him with their children and only took John Braithwaite (jnr). There is much family secrecy surrounding the identity of this child's biological Father. We have hit a brick wall regarding the information pertaining to this man as all we have is what is registered on the birth certficates, and it is likely that perhaps this is incorrect in some cases for various reasons. Very frustrating!

[ss002d6252]

1. John Braithwaite, born August 1916 at 8 Winders Crt - Monmouth St in Lancaster.

FATHER – John BRAITHWAITE, born abt 1885 Ulverston, Munitions Factory Worker. MOTHER – Sarah WALLING. (this child would have been conceived around Jan 1916).

There's a John Braithwaite, born 1885, living at 5 Gregg's Cottages, Ulverston on the 1911 census.

Craig

[Braithwaite1]

That is John Preston Braithwaite (father - Jonathan Braithwaite & mother - Mary Braithwaite).

[Guest Kendra]

I hope I am not breaking any rules of the forum, with this posting.

A few years ago I was contacted by a genealogist from Australia , looking for John Braithwaite father of the two boys, John and Walter;-I was sent copies of the boys birth certificates, I was contacted because I had a great uncle John Braithwaite who lived in Silverdale, Lancashire, who could have fit the bill, as father of the two boys.

I went to the national archives in Kew, London, to look at the British Army WW1 Service Records for John Braithwaite regiment no:357342 ;-but sadly the record must have been amongst those destroyed in WW2.

I did find the divorce record of Sarah and Matthew Walling