WW1 memorials during WW2

[jacksdad]

Roger - during WW1 and WW2 Great Britain was at war with Germany (and others), not a political party. "The bady Germans" were ... the Germans. You cannot airbrush history.

Tom

Tom - Agreed - Great Britain declared war on Germany.

But at no point was I discussing who declared war on who.

I was discussing who damaged the graves - and they were hardly German Jews were they? So Germans is a bit broad a statement. They were more likely members of a 'political party' or ideological party called the German Nazi's.

If you believe that it was Germans - ok with me. Nazi or Germans are both correct. One does not airbrush the other out. but I am not going to tar a whole race with that brush. That's why I defined my statement by saying 'Nazi's'.

I did that because history is never quite that basic and simple. At times it requires and begs clarification - further definition if you will.

So to go down your road - I guess if forced (and your not forcing me) to answer - but just for the hell of it; I would say that my understanding and belief is that the people who cowardly smashed Jewish WW1 Gravestones, during WW2, were following an ideology that was not and will never be German or Germany - it was a Nazi ideology based on basic stupidity that you could tar an entire race/religion with one brush.

Britain declared war on Germany - Agreed - they just happened to be lead by a group of guys we call Nazi's. A famous joker called Mr Churchill oft referred to them as 'Nazi's' [1] and other times Germans. I am sure when he used 'Nazi", people did not yell out, "do you mean Germans, Sir?" As I think they probably understood it was not airbrushing.

Mr Churchill knew sometimes things needed to be defined better with a bit of emphasis. call it clarification - perhaps elucidation even.

Hope that clarifies why my original post was worded the way it was. Nazi's (in my humble opinion) attacked the Jewish WW1 graves.

As an aside: great Avatar - is that you as a boy wearing the UK skirt in the photo?

[1] 4 June 1940. House of Commons.

[Hedley Malloch]

Tom - Agreed - Great Britain declared war on Germany. ...(big snip)

... [1] 4 June 1940. House of Commons.

Roger,

What are you trying to say here?

[Hedley Malloch]

The French war memorial in the church at Oradour sur Glane, damaged by fire and German machine-gun bullets

[healdav]

All my info comes from the locals.

[jacksdad]

Roger,

What are you trying to say here?

Ha. I have no idea...

[tumbi1]

Here is an "interesting" bit of German WW2 vandalism to a British WW1 memorial. Assuming its still there (I was shown it several years ago) I suspect that it hadn't been removed because so few people would ever see it. (My own feeling is that its a bit of history which should be left as-is).

GWF German WW2 vandalism.JPG

The 2nd Australian Division memorial at St Quentin is one of the memorials which the Germans completely destroyed.

GWF 2nd Australian Division Memorial, St Quentin. Destroyed by Germans 1940.jpg

Tom

The Australian memorial at Mont St Quentin was controversial even in the Australian 'camp' before it was erected as they thought it wasn't in the spirit of what they wanted, but in the end they stuck with what the sculptor gave them. I think the current one is much better as it is solemn and more in keeping with the original idea, plus it does no harm to reconciliation.

[Ghazala]

Of course, the most signal act of destruction was the railway carriage at Compiegne.

Off the main road back towards Compiègne, there's a signposted forest path that takes you to a gravestone. It marks the spot of the last train from Compiègne to Buchenwald on August 17th, 1944, carrying 1,250 people to the death camp.

[Doughboy332]

During WWII, Hitler ordered SS troops to guard the Vimy Ridge Memorial because it was his favorite monument from WWI. He liked how it was a "monument to peace, not a celebration of war" (how ironic!!!)

http://www.thestar.com/news/2007/04/07/how_hitler_spared_vimy_ridge.html

Apparently the Germans also did their fair share of monument destruction to their own monuments, notably the Tannenberg Memorial. (http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/JM/monument.html)

[SiegeGunner]

From the first article you cite:

"All the Australian war graves in France from World War I were destroyed in World War II."

Really ...?

[Mark Hone]

The inaccuracies in the Toronto Star article are discussed in a previous thread. The idea that Australian WWI graves were destroyed by the Germans is complete nonsense. The SS guard on Vimy Ridge appears to be a myth. The article seems to be a complete misunderstanding based on the fact that the Germans did destroy a couple of monuments that contained specifically anti-German imagery or sentiments, as mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.

[The Scorer]

I understand that the original Dover Patrol Memorial at Cap Blanc Nez was demolished by the Germans after the occupation of France.

This was done because it was a naval navigation point, not because it commemorated anything that the Germans didn't like. It was, of course, rebuilt after the end of the Second World War and is still there now.

I think that there are / were other similar occurrences elsewhere, although I can't give any examples off hand at the moment.

[Aurel Sercu]

An example of a destruction by Germans of an "anti"-German monument in WW2.

Boezinge, hamlet of Steenstrate, 8 May 1941.

Destruction of the Monument for the chlorine gas victims of 22 April 1915.

The Germans did not like it.

French soldiers asphyxiated and in agony was a little too realistic.

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Fantastic photograph, Aurel, I'd not seen it before.

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

I am old but not old enough to ...

I mean : it was not me who took the photo. :-)

It was a German soldier. And this (and more ?) pics were distributed - so I heard a,d read - to locals. (No : I was not one of these locals ... !)

Aurel (feeling young again)

[m0rris]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone can explain the distinctive marks on this grave at Perth Cemetery (China Wall) and whether it could relate to action in WW2. It belongs to a man who was killed with my great uncle. Thanks.

[chrislock]

Many of the cemeteries & memorials around Ypres reveal bullet & shrapnel strikes from two key date periods of fighting. They being May 1940 & September 1944.

I am also aware of US .50 cal bullet strikes at Brandhoek, the result of a flight of Mustangs strafing a German troop train and German 20mm cannon round strikes at Beselaere from Fokke Wullf 190's and both outside of the key periods of fighting. Look deeper into European mainland WW2 history and much will be discovered.

[Mark Hone]

Aurel-sorry, I didn't meant to imply that I thought that you had taken the photograph!

[m0rris]

Many of the cemeteries & memorials around Ypres reveal bullet & shrapnel strikes from two key date periods of fighting. They being May 1940 & September 1944.

I am also aware of US .50 cal bullet strikes at Brandhoek, the result of a flight of Mustangs strafing a German troop train and German 20mm cannon round strikes at Beselaere from Fokke Wullf 190's and both outside of the key periods of fighting. Look deeper into European mainland WW2 history and much will be discovered.

Thanks Chris - and also for the recommendation.

[chrislock]

Haha pleasure Will and nice one!

Back to damaged memorials and cemeteries however. The Ypres Reservoir CWGC cemetery was damaged quite a bit on Sept 6th 1944 as Polish 9th Infantry Battalion troops fought their way through a German strong point which had been set up in the far corner of the cemetery protecting the town prison on Elverdingestraat which was another German defence point.

PIAT rounds with their HEAT warheads were used in plenty as were Mills 36 grenades on top of the deluge of LMG & rifle fire. 2 Polish soldiers were KIA in Elverdingestraat during this single action with many more injured. 40+ German POW's were taken when the prison redoubt surrendered. War diary and town archives do not reveal how many German soldiers were killed in this action but it is believed to be substantial. This is the same Polish infantry Battalion with support from tanks of the Polish 2nd Armoured Regt that took out the train station & canal bridge crossing defences which cost more lives and the loss of 2 Stuart light tanks and 1 Sherman medium tank.

WW2 stuff I know which really should be located elsewhere but it does offer answers to the original question.

The cemetery to this day still bears the scars in part of that action as does the prison.

In 1940 the Cross of Sacrifice & several graves were obliterated by artillery in Blauwpoort CWGC cemetery. Essex farm and Dulhallowes and others still bear much evidence of the fighting.

Indeed. WW2 collateral damage was responsible for many WW1 war memorials and cemeteries being destroyed or damaged.

[KOBE]

Hi all,

 

I've just come across this thread whilst researching missing monuments and thought you might be interested to read this article by American Professor Despina Stratigakos in 'Architect Magazine'.

 

Apparently the destruction of Allied war memorials in occupied Belgium and France were personally ordered by Adolf Hitler.

 

https://www.architectmagazine.com/design/culture/the-invasion-of-memory-hitlers-attempt-to-rewrite-the-history-of-world-war-i_o

 

 

[Marilyne]

Interesting article and very interesting thread.

I particularly like the picture in post #40 … will visit that particular grave next time I'm around there … whenever that will be…

 

M. 

[AOK4]

4 hours ago, KOBE said:

Hi all,

 

I've just come across this thread whilst researching missing monuments and thought you might be interested to read this article by American Professor Despina Stratigakos in 'Architect Magazine'.

 

Apparently the destruction of Allied war memorials in occupied Belgium and France were personally ordered by Adolf Hitler.

 

https://www.architectmagazine.com/design/culture/the-invasion-of-memory-hitlers-attempt-to-rewrite-the-history-of-world-war-i_o

 

 

 

That article is typical American. A lot of large words, but in the end, things were far less spectacular. It reminds me of the typical National Geographic and Discovery Chanel documentaries of nowadays. There is nothing new or unknown about the fact that the Germans destroyed or removed some memorials which were openly anti-German (a lot of them referring to the crimes of 1914 against the population, but also the Steenstrate Memorial for the gas attack of 1915 to give an example). Others were "corrected", e.g. trampled German eagles removed on communal war memorials in Belgium or anti-German words removed such as the word "barbaric" describing the Germans on the Worcestershire Memorial in Geluveld (after the war, the erased word was replaced by ""detemined").

Most of the cemeteries and memorials were left untouched, on the contrary, Hitler loved the grandeur of certain memorials like the Menin Gate or Vimy Memorial, both of which he visited in 1940. Respect also for British WWI cemeteries and memorials was demanded from anyone and whoever "desecrated" the places, such as children playing on them, could expect an invitation to the nearby "Kommandantur".

[NigelS]

On 09/11/2013 at 22:46, Tom Morgan said:

But the Germans didn't destroy it because it had bad memories. Hitler personally accepted the French surrender in the same carriage in June, 1940 and it was then taken back to Germany to be exhibited as a trophy. They destroyed it to stop it being recaptured by the allies when they began to close in on Germany.

 

I've just re-read this thread, and the timeline given for the carriage on the Memorial deL'Armistice website gives that, other than sparing the statue of Marshal Foch, the Compiegne site, on the orders of Hitler, was levelled after the signing of the 1940 surrender, with the original carriage sent to Germany where it was eventually destroyed in 'the accidental burning of the Crawinkel railway station next to the Ohrdruf prison camp" rather than deliberately. similarly, the Alsace-Lorraine Memorial - another contender  for having been destroyed - is given  as having been dismantled and removed to Germany to be recovered and re-erected at the Compiegne site post WWII.  I would like to think that this version, which ought to have been well researched, is authoritative, but, not unexpectedly, the Wikipedia entry - as I daresay do some other popular accounts - puts a slightly different spin on the events. 

 

NigelS

Edited 11 April , 2020 by NigelS

[KOBE]

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

 There is nothing new or unknown about the fact that the Germans destroyed or removed some memorials which were openly anti-German (a lot of them referring to the crimes of 1914 against the population, but also the Steenstrate Memorial for the gas attack of 1915 to give an example). Others were "corrected", e.g. trampled German eagles removed on communal war memorials in Belgium or anti-German words removed such as the word "barbaric" describing the Germans on the Worcestershire Memorial in Geluveld (after the war, the erased word was replaced by ""detemined").

 

So if it was already known, how come not a single person previously quoted the fact of Hitler's direct order? I mean, Adolf himself signing off on a program of such magnitude would surely be big news.

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, KOBE said:

So if it was already known, how come not a single person previously quoted the fact of Hitler's direct order? I mean, Adolf himself signing off on a program of such magnitude would surely be big news.

 

I am not a WW2 specialist, but the official commission in charge of the removal/demolishing of monuments is very welll known and I believe books and articles have been written about it. I am quite sure there is nothing unknown or new about this order as a lot more military paperwork has survived (compared to WW1) and a lot more research has been done.