Lost service records

[SteveE]

Was there a service record?

I found 11705 J McAuliffe 17.8.15 11Th RF so it seems the date could be correct, So far I have been unable to find service records for them.

Yes, the service record for 11876 Herbert James Thorns exists and shows the dates I mentioned in Post#24.

I have no doubt that the date is correct. I've checked the MICs for those men that died on 26/09/1916 and six show 17/08/1915 as the date of embarkation, there are also others that I've checked in the 118xx number range (including Thorns) that also show the same. A search of a few of the relevant pages in the Medal Roll will probably give some indication as to how big the draft was.

If the medal cards state 8th RF why are they shown on memorial as 11th RF? I understand that they were transferred but it must have confused NOK who thought their relative was elsewhere.

Taking the casualties of the 26/09/1916 as an example the Medal Index Card shows 8th RF, 11th RF or another RF battalion simply because the man's 1914/1915 Star entitlement was earned with that battalion and the clerk responsible for completing the index card (in 1919) added it to the detail, no other reason. Equally, there are examples where the clerk responsible didn't enter the battalion reference.

The memorial however shows the battalion they were serving with when killed. Equally it, the 'memorial', makes no reference to the fact that the men possibly went overseas with another battalion initially.

As previously stated, the Medal Index Card does not show changes in postings between battalions of the same regiment, the Medal Roll will show that. This detail on the card would have caused no confusion to NOK as they wouldn't be privy to the detail, it was an Army Medal Office index card system.

If a man changed battalion then, likely as not if there was sufficient time and he was so inclined to do, he would let his NOK know of the change so that mail could be addressed correctly. If he didn't let them know then yes, they may well have thought he was elsewhere, but that wouldn't be down to what was written on the MICs.

Steve

[johnboy]

Steve, thanks for all the explanations.

I will take the dates as being right.

If I take embarkation date should I add the same number of days in France before going to the trenches as the original group or should I add , say , 3/4 days?

I will look at the diary and try and find any mention of drafts arriving.

[SteveE]

Thorns' record states he was posted to the 11th/RF from the 16th/RF on 17th August 1915 and embarked the same day. It also states he joined the 11th/RF on 22nd August 1915 which I assume is the date he joined that battalion 'in the field'.

Having been through a few more records in the 118xx and 119xx number ranges I'd suggest that those men embarking on 17th August 1915 were a draft of men posted to the 11th/RF from the 16th/RF. They all appear to have enlisted in January 1915 and been posted to the 16th/RF in the UK on 27th January 1915, a number of them were then posted to the 11th/RF on 17th August 1915 and embarked on that date.

Steve

[johnboy]

Thanks for all the help. I wasn't far out on dates to trenches. They would have had possibly a day st Ostrohove and then onto Reg. I will look to see where 11th were on 22 August.

[johnboy]

The WD makes no mention of any drafts arriving 22 August

21 August 11RF were in SUZANNE.

A and D coys, marched to MERICOURT 22 August

B and C coys. and HQ followed 23 August.

[SteveE]

Taking the casualties of 26/09/1916 as our example, according to their Medal Index Cards men embarked overseas for 11th/RF on 26/07/1915, 17/08/1915, 26/08/1915, 03/09/1915 and 28/12/1915.

Excluding the initial battalion embarkation of 26/07/1915 and the latter date of 28/12/1915 which the War Diary appears to cover, that leaves three dates 17/08/1915, 26/08/1915 and 03/09/1915 on which men proceeded overseas but no mention is made in the War Diary. That is unless they're covered by the 19th September entry added to the diary subsequent to that of the 25th September....."A draft of 50 N.C.O.s and men joined the Bn. from Base Depot on 19th September 1915". However, even if we knew how many men proceeded overseas on the three dates mentioned, which we don't currently, I don't know that we could state with any confidence which men the 19th September entry covers. Additionally, of course, there is also the 22nd August 1915 date mentioned in Thorns' record.

Martin G's advice in Post #11 to check the "Brigade and Divisional (Admin) War Diaries as often the drafts were recorded at this level" may be your best bet of confirming dates of drafts arriving with the battalion.

Steve

[johnboy]

"Brigade and Divisional (Admin) War Diaries

Where would I find that Steve?

[Guest]

Kew. Hardly any of the Div Admin diaries have been digitised. MG

[johnboy]

Thought so !!

[David_Underdown]

The higher formation diaries are included in the recent digitisation programme for WO 95 (France and Flanders theatre), but they aren't yet available online, though they will be.

[johnboy]

Thanks David.