photos from tel-el-foul battle in palestine

[tsahal]

here is some pics i found on an israeli forum, the credit is for "fresh" forum and matson collection..

please give attention to the equipment of the turkish soldiers..

can someone identifie the british unit? thank you

[tsahal]

is the grenades and rifles are german made?

[madgarry]

Looks like a Scottish regiment to me, cant tell which

[Eran Tearosh]

It is the London Scottish. 2/14 Btn, 60th (London) Div.

Last year we (The association of WW1 heritage in the Land of Israel) toured that battlefield quite thoroughly during our AGM.

Eran

[tsahal]

hi eran, and where is todays location of this battle? i wonder if there is any memorial where the mass grave of the dead turkish are? marco.

[Gareth Davies]

hi eran, and where is todays location of this battle? i wonder if there is any memorial where the mass grave of the dead turkish are? marco.

tsahal

The places on the road sign are all places I know well from when I lived in East Jerusalem and worked in Palestine but I can't place it exactly.

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi,

The whole area is today heavily built. Tel el-Ful itself is believed to be the location of Givat Shaul / Geva Binyamin, the capital of King Saul's kingdom (Without entering the discussions and many different views regarding the authenteacy of the Biblical text). In the 60's, King Hussain of Jordan started bulding a palace on the summit of Tel el-Ful, a building never completed and remains as a skeleton of a structure till today. The summit of the hill (The structure and the area around) is not built and is due to remain this way due to the archeological remnants. The building can easily be reached. There's a spectacular view from the second floor of the construction (Tsahal - P.M. me for exact directions)

 

The main battle itself was on the Northern slopes of the hill. Further fighting took place a bit to the West. Smaller events accrued North-East of Tel el-Ful and further East.

 

No memorials regarding the battle. No marking of the mass grave.

 

Eran

Edited 12 October , 2016 by Eran Tearosh

[Gareth Davies]

The photograph of LImerick Junction can't be at the current Tel el-Ful, the signs are pointing in the wrong direction. That sign must be west of Ramallah.

[Eran Tearosh]

Gareth,

You're right. It can't be even near Tel el-Ful. As you mentioned, it must be West of Ramallah, or more likely, North-West.

Eran

[Gareth Davies]

Gareth,

You're right. It can't be even near Tel el-Ful. As you mentioned, it must be West of Ramallah, or more likely, North-West.

Eran

Yes. Definitely. I will have to go looking for it next time I am there.

[Eran Tearosh]

Gareth,

Bare in mind that some of these sites came under British hands only during March 1918, Tell Asur/Turmus Aya events. This means that we are probably looking at the roads constructed between late March to mid Septenber 1918. The Division active in this area was the 10th (Irish), that was very active in road-making. Maybe that might help.

If you want any assistence while you're there - let me know and I'll do my best.

Eran

[Gareth Davies]

Thanks Eran. I will certainly be in touch with you and Michael before I come over.

[michaeldr]

Gareth,

Bare in mind that some of these sites came under British hands only during March 1918, Tell Asur/Turmus Aya events. This means that we are probably looking at the roads constructed between late March to mid Septenber 1918. The Division active in this area was the 10th (Irish), that was very active in road-making. Maybe that might help.

If you want any assistence while you're there - let me know and I'll do my best.

Eran

Eran,

The top left hand corner of that photograph seems to indicate that it was taken on Jan 22, 1919*

and the name given as 'Limerick Junction'; both support your above suggestion

regards

Michael

* the date is confirmed by the LoC's Online Catalog - see http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/matpc/item/mpc2004000006/PP/

Could this be a photograph of an US serviceman or officer?

I see no cap badge to identify the unit

however, the writing on the tailgate of the motor seems to begin with the letters USA

Any comments gentlemen?

Edited 26 October , 2013 by michaeldr

[Gareth Davies]

Good spot.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

A possible answer may lay with a AIF LH soldier I have who was attached to a US YMCA or US Red Cross operating in Palestine at this time in 1918

S.B

[michaeldr]

Steve,

I think that the American Red Cross is a strong possibility - Ronald Storrs, in his memoirs, has the following at about this time

"O.E.T.A. could also turn for help … in even more ample measure, to the American Red Cross, who soon established their Unit in a great house belonging to the Bute family, later the seat of the French Consulate. Its leader was Colonel John Finley (now editor of the New York Times)"

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Follow this link http://www.knox.edu/about-knox/we-are-knox/our-history/perspectives-on-knox-history/timeline.html

then go to the foot of the page

and then click on the photograph of Finley

The sepia shot which will then come up bears a striking resemblance to the man standing at Limerick Junction on 22 Jan 1919

What do you think? Is the first photograph on the op Col John Finley of the American Red Cross?

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was rechecking some men when this bloke showed up,

McGIBBON Robert Wilson 12 MT Dvr Arm Car Sect HQ att WFF to MT Dvr 2/AM 67 Sqn (1 Sqn) AFC 8-17 to Fitter 1/AM 3-18 disch commisioned in Engineering Svcs of the American Red Cross in Palestine (CMF 9 months)

There is a leter from a Capt William C. Groeniger DOES American Red Cross asking for Airman McGibbon for a commision into the Engineering services of the American Red Cross.in his file.

Cheers

S.B

[emrezmen]

Hello everyone,

 

 While we're getting near to the 103rd anniversay of the battle, I am still unable to pinpoint the exact locations of some photos taken on the battlefield (see below). Where these photos were taken exactly? For example, I know first photo was taken in front of Tell El Ful but I need slightly more than that. Coordinates from Google Earth or Google Maps would be of much help at this point. I am well aware it might be impossible to give an exact location due to serious construction in that area today but I still thought it would be a good idea to ask our forum pals from Israel. 

 

Another thing, my attempt to locate the Hill 814 or Hill 2670 has come to nothing so far. Is it same hill with Khirbet el Meraghib immediately west of Shafat?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 December , 2020 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Mates,

 

While you seam to mention they are Ottoman soldiers I am more inclined to think they maybe German?

 

The uniforms are not Ottoman but German as most Ottoman soldiers in late 1918 were dressed in rags, these seam better dressed then those Ottomans I've seen?

 

Without a date I am unsure which units they belong to, is the March 1918 alright?

 

I have around 77 names of Germans killed or captured around the date (March 1918) from a number of units mainly from 702nd Bn (3 Coy) and 703rd Bn (2 Coy) as well as a Transport unit, all on the east bank of the Jordan (Es Salt to Amman)

 

Cheers

S.B

[emrezmen]

It's December 1917. These soldiers were from the stormtrooper battalion (hücum taburu/assault battalion) of the 19th Division, trained and equipped in Galicia by January 1917. They were the best equipped and trained soldiers Ottoman army had at that time, as emphasised in British OH. But the problem was that the army was still in an adaptation period for the doctrine. Moreover, the stormtrooper coys/bns were numerically weak as was the case with all other infantry units of the army.

 

As a fine detail, you can tell an Ottoman soldier by his waistband/belt, which was a part of daily clothing in Anatolia at that time. This detail can be easily seen in high quality versions of these photos. Ottoman soldiers were usually allowed to wear their civilian shirts or some other parts of their civilian clothing under the official uniform. Another indicator would be the visorless variant of M16 Stahlhelm which was specifically produced at the request of Ottoman army.

 

Here's an extremely rare photo from the Palestine Front showing stormtrooper detachment of 127th Regiment (another veteran Gallipoli regiment).

 

Edited 13 December , 2020 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Emrez,

 

That makes sence, the fight at El Burj 30 Nov 1917

 

The bodies appear partly striped as some have no boots?

 

The photo is interesting, the Ottoman soldier with the War Medal on the right, not left?

 

But well equipt with light MG's

 

The moustache, Kaiser like, is strange for Ottoman soldiers?

 

Of cause we could also look at this I show with the 11th Div

 

shown May 1918 Allied reports (2700 men 54 Mgs) 33rd Regt 127th Regt att 158th Regt (50th Div) - shown June 1918 Allied reports (3350 men 75 MGs) att 158th Regt (50th Div) disbanded to 126th Regt - shown July 1918 Allied reports (2550 men 75 MGs) & (2000 men 75 MG's) - shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 33rd Regt lost 440 men British raid on El Burj bridge 12/13 Aug 1918 (1600 men 77 Mgs) - shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (77 MG's) 33rd Regt (550 men) 126th Regt (530 men) 127th Regt (420 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) - reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

 

Cheers

S.B

Edited 14 December , 2020 by stevebecker

[Skipman]

These maps are useful if you haven't used them. Click

 

Ramallah and Ajjul on map attached

 

Mike

[michaeldr]

59 minutes ago, Skipman said:

These maps are useful if you haven't used them. Click

 

 

Using the link provided by Mike, you can navigate the map and then you will spot Tel el Ful in the square just above Shu'fat

 

If you move 3 squares to the west from Shu'fat you will see a triangulation point/spot height 814m

It is just above the Ard in Ard Kh. Beit Kika

[this is the only 814 that I've found so far]

[Skipman]

Google Earth now has some street views available of Palestine, this view  from looking north from Shu'fat  31°49'33.55"N 35°11'15.61"E towards  Nebi Samwel.

 

Mike