Battlefield recovery of dead soldiers

[johnboy]

As i have been looking at a lot of images of dead people in the last couple of years I was thinking that it is as well that people like my granny and great granny didn't have the internet. Can you imagine how they would feel on looking at the rows of bodies, and heaven forbid someone recognises one of them.

H

The most harrowing are ones that show men blown to bits and the ones with horrific injuries and also some of the unrecognisable faces of men who lived.

[Andrew Upton]

...Just one thing about the boots though, wasn't taking their boots breaking article 3 of the 1906 Geneva Convention? although Britain never sign this declaration the Germans certainly did. just curious

I think you'll find Britain WAS a signatory to the 1906 Geneva Convention:

https://archive.org/stream/genevaconvention00confuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

It's even on page 1 - under Contracting Parties is listed "His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of India", and lists the nominated plenipotentiaries on page 3.

...Not just boots but webbing, rifles etc, After all, it;s army property not yours, which is why you pay for it if you lose it (hence the old army joke 'its no wonder the captain goes down with his ship').It would be cleaned, but not all that thoroughly. So a new recruit being given his equipment could find some nasty stains on it.

In the British Army at the time certain basic items of kit (boots included) actually became a soldiers personal property, which he was allowed to keep after serving. He would have to pay for a new pair if he lost or sold them, but if they wore out or were lost through enemy action or similar he could expect a new pair without charge. However, such niceties/distinctions were for the living, and if issue kit from the dead could be reused it would, and boots were simply one of the items that were consistently in high demand on either side.

[hazelclark]

The most harrowing are ones that show men blown to bits and the ones with horrific injuries and also some of the unrecognisable faces of men who lived.

Yes, I have seen some of those.

H

[Rogueraven]

I think you'll find Britain WAS a signatory to the 1906 Geneva Convention:

https://archive.org/stream/genevaconvention00confuoft#page/n5/mode/2up

It's even on page 1 - under Contacting Parties is listed "His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Emperor of India", and lists the nominated plenipotentiaries on page 3.

In the British Army at the time certain basic items of kit (boots included) actually became a soldiers personal property, which he was allowed to keep after serving. He would have to pay for a new pair if he lost or sold them, but if they wore out or were lost through enemy action or similar he could expect a new pair without charge. However, such niceties/distinctions were for the living, and if issue kit from the dead could be reused it would, and boots were simply one of the items that were consistently in high demand on either side.

Britain signed the original (1864) in 1865 so it was a contacting party that was present in 1906 convention hence its mention as a contacting party, later in the book it shows who signed, Britain signed April 16 1907. However here it says otherwise http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=E5E40C1004A7F77CC12563CD0051641D I only assumed the ICRC had it correctly listed although maybe I should have looked into it more before I made the extended statement.

Anyway

I really do need help with this enquiry If an enemy airman's body was recovered behind the lines what was the practice in this case, I would be very interested if someone could inform me about the German practice when they recovered a British or Commonwealth airman. I have a on going research project of a airman who crashed 5 miles behind the frontlines and a potential picture of the crash site and victim. from here I have no factual evidence so I need to piece together what could have happened next, to try and relocate some factual evidence for a possible burial

feel free to private message me

Thanks

James

[johnboy]

Does your man have a marked grave? When you say behind the front line do you mean the British frontline or German front line?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I would be very interested if someone could inform me about the German practice when they recovered a British or Commonwealth airman. I have a on going research project of a airman who crashed 5 miles behind the frontlines and a potential picture of the crash site and victim

Thanks

James

James,

The Germans seemed fascinated by the shot down/dead 'British Fliers ', and the crash sites would attract onlookers in a way that would not normally apply to the sight of a dead British soldier, and I have seen accounts of military funerals being given to the KIA British airman by the Germans, which I shall try and locate for you.

Attached, are some photographs of British aeroplane crash sites.

The bottom photograph, shows a destroyed RE8.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is another unfortunate ' British Fliers ' crash site, I believe the British pilot's name was Jack Potts ? His aircraft, was an RE8.

LF

[Rogueraven]

Does your man have a marked grave? When you say behind the front line do you mean the British frontline or German front line?

No known grave, German front lines

James,

The Germans seemed fascinated by the shot down/dead 'British Fliers ', and the crash sites would attract onlookers in a way that would not normally apply to the sight of a dead British soldier, and I have seen accounts of military funerals being given to the KIA British airman by the Germans, which I shall try and locate for you.

Attached, are some photographs of British aeroplane crash sites.

Regards,

LF

Thank you, but what I really need is information on process of the body from recovery to burial in regards to documented actions, was the body examined passed onto the Red Cross? was everything recorded to the point of grave site ? I guess what I am saying is if a body was recovered so far behind the German frontlines would there have been a paper trail to the burial location at some point?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thank you, but what I really need is information on process of the body from recovery to burial in regards to documented actions, was the body examined passed onto the Red Cross? was everything recorded to the point of grave site ? I guess what I am saying is if a body was recovered so far behind the German frontlines would there have been a paper trail to the burial location at some point?

The Germans did provide the Red Cross, and the British directly, with information on dead airman.

For ' intelligence ' purposes, the dead pilot's body would have been searched for evidence of his identification and squadron etc.

As you can see from the photographs, especially if there had been crashed aircraft engulfed in flames, I doubt that all bodies were passed to the Red Cross, and burial would have been made probably at the crash site.

Again, I have seen photographs of the grave of a British pilot, buried by the Germans, with a grave marker cross showing ' Fallen British Flier '.

Regards,

LF

[spof]

The body would have been recoverd and personal effects removed. He would have then been buried and a record of this and his effects would have been sent to Berlin (maps etc would have been kept) and then sent to the Red Cross in Geneva. They would then send it to London and the information passed to the War Office.

This is an example of the cards used in Berlin. This came fron an AIF file but the RC in Genenva will have the completed lists of names taken from them. Unfortunately, you8'll have to wait until next year as their archives are no longer open to research while they digitise them.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here we see an American soldier at Base Hospital number 17. Dijon, France, painting names on grave crosses. September 5, 1918.

Note the extensive list of the names of the dead men, next to him, from which he is working.

LF

[Stephen Nulty]

With regard to the question of missing boots, I came across this article some time back....

"Lieutenant H. Knee at Tower Hamlets, Ypres, in October 1917 described the process that was followed as laid down in 'SS456 Burial of Soldiers' published in August 1916:

'Orders had been given that we were to take from their pockets pay books and personal effects, such as money, watches, rings, photos, letters and so on, one identification disk had also to be removed, the other being left on the body. Boots were supposed to be removed, if possible, as salvage was the order of the day. A small white bag was provided for each man's effects, the neck of which was to be securely tied and his identity disc attached thereto. It was a gruesome job!'

"

[hazelclark]

With regard to the question of missing boots, I came across this article some time back....

It was a gruesome job[/i]!'

"

Those poor guys had to do things that seem almost unimaginable to us.

Hazel

[Andrew Upton]

Britain signed the original (1864) in 1865 so it was a contacting party that was present in 1906 convention hence its mention as a contacting party, later in the book it shows who signed, Britain signed April 16 1907. However here it says otherwise http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=E5E40C1004A7F77CC12563CD0051641D I only assumed the ICRC had it correctly listed although maybe I should have looked into it more before I made the extended statement.

If you look at pages 14 and 15 of the linked copy from 1916, basically Britain (and a few other countries) had odd problems and quibbles with the 1906 version, but essentially agreed with the majority as-written. The Final Protocol was just one small part of this.

[Rogueraven]

The body would have been recoverd and personal effects removed. He would have then been buried and a record of this and his effects would have been sent to Berlin (maps etc would have been kept) and then sent to the Red Cross in Geneva. They would then send it to London and the information passed to the War Office.

This is an example of the cards used in Berlin. This came fron an AIF file but the RC in Genenva will have the completed lists of names taken from them. Unfortunately, you8'll have to wait until next year as their archives are no longer open to research while they digitise them.

Yes I've already sent numerous emails to Geneva just to be told to come back into 2014, I guess the bundesarchiv would be my next stop. by any chance could you translate that card for me.

dienftgrad ?

Truppenteil Part of the force (Unit, etc)

zeit und ort der Oefangennabme ? (Time and place of ?)

Uufenthaltsort ?

Bemertungen, Verwundung, Heimatsort. ? Wounded Hometown ?

Those poor guys had to do things that seem almost unimaginable to us.

Hazel

Unimaginable to us but routine to them, The actions of man knows no bounds, yes poor guys and girls.

James

[spof]

An interesting read - the diary of a man in a graves detachment http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/81498

Here is a translation of the card:

[Rogueraven]

Thanks for all the help, I have sent a letter off to the Bundesarchiv hopefully they have someone who speaks English

[Stoppage Drill]

Similar thoughts to Norman. For example, at Gommecourt, Somme, 1 July 1916, when recovery was not possible until the Germans withdrew in 1917. The Germans buried at least one officer who was killed in their lines whose name I now forget.

In ongoing offensives I would imagine temporary truces for recovery were rare. Would be interested in examples of where this was otherwise.

And yet, also at Gommecourt . . . "In many places, and at a surprisingly early stage of the battle (1 July) the Germans offered the British an unofficial and unilateral truce: at about 2 p.m. on the front of the 56th London Division, where 'a German medical officer . . . . came out with a white flag and said that there was no objection to the removal of wounded on the British side of the wire, so long as no firing took place', and on VIII Corps front, where the Germans allowed stretcher bearers to move freely about no-mans-land between noon and 4 p.m. But elsewhere the wounded had to lie out until darkness, or until next morning, when the Germans again in several places offered a humanitarian truce, or indeed until even later than that."

The quote is from Keegan, "Face of Battle".

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

The quote is from Keegan, "Face of Battle".

I'm not familiar with the book, - does he give sources for the quoted sections ?

Tom

[Stoppage Drill]

Simple answer is no, and that is, of course, regrettable but not unexpected.

The attached critique seems reasonable to me - http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/prodrev/aafprfaceofbattle.htm . It dates itself as being written in 2002 as reference is made to Face of Battle being within 4 years of its 30th anniversary.

Keegan wrote "The Mask of Command" as a sort of corollary work in 1987.

As you will see from the attachment, FOB was not a First World War history as such, but a study of aspects of warfare over several centuries, drawing on three exemplary battles, Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme. Maybe this is why it is not in the modern canon, but Keegan's works were virtually required reading for a couple of generations due to his Sandhurst status from 1960 until the late 1980s.

MOC takes a similar approach to FOB in that it selects examples from history to advance towards certain conclusions, except that MOC looks at commanders rather than campaigns or battles. (Alexander [the Macedonian one, not the Harrovian !] Wellington, Ulysses Grant and Hitler, A.)

References in FOB are pretty sparse, but to be fair this does seem to be typical of books of the time (1976). There is a good bibliography, though. Whilst one is often left uncertain at the provenance of some sources due to a lack of attribution, I don't think Keegan or Jonathan Cape should now be criticised for producing a book to the accepted standards of the day. I see from the attachment that there have been later editions and perhaps these may have the level of attribution that we expect to see nowadays.

Whilst I can't locate other references at the drop of a hat, I am quite confident that I have, over the years, seen many references to battlefield truces in the Great War and the events related by Keegan, whilst certainly unusual, are far from unique.

[Neil Mackenzie]

There is an account of a German burial of a British airmen in the article below.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/10340753/WW1-deaths-showed-the-humanity-amid-the-horror.html

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Simple answer is no, and that is, of course, regrettable but not unexpected.

The credibility of any second-hand account will almost always rest with the plausibility and authoritativeness of the original source, and original sources are not exactly thick on the ground with regards to these truces being at all "usual".

Tom

[Tony Ring]

I have received confirmation that my Great Uncle was on a moping up mission in no mans land in the village of Epehy when he was killed in 1918.

He was later buried in a trench grave.

Question: As he was an officer what would have happened to his kit that he was wearing at the time - including his revolver that he had purchased prior to going to France. If it survived would it have gone to his regiment to be dispersed amongst fellow officers ?

Thanking you in advance.

Tony

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The salvaging of a battlefield by the British Army is evidenced by the attached photograph, which is captioned as " troops collecting items of kit, clothing and rifles which were strewn around after a battle at Bapaume, these items were salvaged from those who no longer needed them... the dead "

LF

[johnboy]

A difficult one. If it was OR's who found the body they could have followed regs. put all personal possessions in the canvas bag with his ID tag to secure it. Would they have known if a revolver was army issue or not? Depending on how he was killed the revolver might not have been near his body and could have been returned to base as salvage.