Engagements that did NOT feature trenches?

[Moonraker]

After 1914, were there any significant engagements on the Western Front that did NOT feature trenches to any extent? Put it another way, did two opposing forces ever clash on open ground well away from Front Line trenches?

I realise that there can be different interpretations of "significant" and "to any extent". Let's say that either force should have consisted of at least 1,000 men.

Moonraker

[centurion]

French Counter attack on a line running Mery- Belloy -Lataule-St.Maur June 11th 1918. The Germans had advanced to this line but had not had time to fortify before the French counter attacked with tanks. German machine gun positions and atillery were in open ground but concealed amongst growing crops. However after passing Mery the French began to encounter entrenched positions again. I suspect there must have been similar sorts of actions during the German March offensive and the later "100 days"

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Cambrai 1917 has to be a contender. Other than that - see post #2.

The 1918 German spring offensives were moving westwards into areas largely fought over before and there was plenty of opportunity to reuse existing defensive works. The 100 Days is maybe a better example, especially towards the middle / end when "fresh" country was being encountered. A quick source are the maps in the Official History, 1918 vol V, of which the one below is an example - 3rd Army 8th - 19th Oct 1918.

Unit diaries for the 100 days sometimes include notes about the men being a bit bewildered about what to do when they are (effectively) unopposed. There seems to have been a lot of aimless standing about, and "souveniring".

Tom

[centurion]

Plenty of trenches at Cambrai in 1917

[Timbob1001]

The 100 days in 1918... open warfare restored.

Tim

[centurion]

The 100 days in 1918... open warfare restored.

Tim

Comparatively open warfare restored. Plenty of fighting right up to the end involved trenches even if sometimes these were hastily fortified ditches.. As I already said in post 2 the 100 days is the most likely time to find cases but it would be a myth* to assume that it was all open warfare

* or more correctly a mythstake

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Plenty of trenches at Cambrai in 1917

The main German defences on the Cambrai front are detailed in “Die Tankschlacht bei Cambrai 1917”. The British advance during the first few days of “Cambrai 1917” passed over the German “Outpost Zone” ahead of Havrincourt – Ribecourt (etc), through the “Battle Zone” ahead of Moeuvres – Flesquieres (etc), and into the “Rearward Battle Zone” straddling Graincourt – Anneux. This took the British beyond the German outpost and front lines, and then beyond the German second line – the “Hindenburg Support System”. Fighting on the 22^nd – 24^th Nov included gains beyond the “Fafner Riegel Nord” - the westwards extension of the “Masnieres – Bearevoir Line” – with part of that line between Masnieres and Rumilly being captured and held before the limited withdrawal of 1^st – 2^nd December, and the tactical withdrawal to the Flesquieres Line at the end of the first week of December.

Whilst this did not take the fighting into any completely “virgin” areas (Westphalia, Lower Saxony, or Hesse for example) it did take the fighting into areas which had not been intensely fought over before, and which, apart from the major defensive lines such as the Masnieres – Bearevoir Line, Wotan II and Wotan III, did not contain trench systems anything like what the attacking troops would have been familiar with. As I said in the post above, Cambrai 1917 has to be a contender (in a field where there is little competition).

Tom

[centurion]

The main German defences on the Cambrai front are detailed in “Die Tankschlacht bei Cambrai 1917”. The British advance during the first few days of “Cambrai 1917” passed over the German “Outpost Zone” ahead of Havrincourt – Ribecourt (etc), through the “Battle Zone” ahead of Moeuvres – Flesquieres (etc), and into the “Rearward Battle Zone” straddling Graincourt – Anneux. This took the British beyond the German outpost and front lines, and then beyond the German second line – the “Hindenburg Support System”. Fighting on the 22^nd – 24^th Nov included gains beyond the “Fafner Riegel Nord” - the westwards extension of the “Masnieres – Bearevoir Line” – with part of that line between Masnieres and Rumilly being captured and held before the limited withdrawal of 1^st – 2^nd December, and the tactical withdrawal to the Flesquieres Line at the end of the first week of December.

Whilst this did not take the fighting into any completely “virgin” areas (Westphalia, Lower Saxony, or Hesse for example) it did take the fighting into areas which had not been intensely fought over before, and which, apart from the major defensive lines such as the Masnieres – Bearevoir Line, Wotan II and Wotan III, did not contain trench systems anything like what the attacking troops would have been familiar with. As I said in the post above, Cambrai 1917 has to be a contender (in a field where there is little competition).

Tom

Yes but as you've demonstrated in your account Cambrai as a whole was all about taking or passing trenches even if there was a breakthrough into more open ground. You could make exactly the same case for Messines

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

After 1914, ... Put it another way, did two opposing forces ever clash on open ground well away from Front Line trenches?

"... open ground well away from Front Line trenches"

Yes but as you've demonstrated in your account Cambrai as a whole was all about taking or passing trenches even if there was a breakthrough into more open ground. You could make exactly the same case for Messines

The Cambrai advance was over 4 miles beyond the front lines - not far enough ???????

Whatever. To be quite blunt - pedantry personified, to which I cannot be bothered to reply.

Tom

Edited 22 October , 2013 by Tom Tulloch-Marshall

[phil andrade]

Moonraker,

A feature of the huge positional battles - particularly Verdun, The Somme and Passchendale - is that the fighting degenerated into contests among craterfields. In this sense, it might be argued that the battlefields were configured more by the combat in the shell hole wilderness than they were by the retention of clearly defined trenches. As artillery became increasingly preponderant in the conduct of battle, it became more important to disperse manpower. To cram soldiers into clearly defined trenches was a recipe for heavier casualties.

I remember reading an account of an interview between a historian and a Canadian veteran of Passchendaele in the late 1960s or early 1970s. The researcher asked the old soldier about what it was like fighting from his trench. The old man snapped back " Trench ? What trench ? ".

I realise, of course, that these crater fields were themselves created by the stagnant warfare that featured trenches ; but I think the notion of " trench warfare" needs to be reconsidered.

Phil (PJA)

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I think the notion of " trench warfare" needs to be reconsidered.

There is some merit in that proposition, though it probably needs to be approached with considerable caution. Photographic evidence from the latter stages of Third Ypres ("Passchendaele") does lend weight to shell-hole fighting rather than "formal" trench warfare, but in the bigger picture of the Western Front, trench based fighting was far more common than fighting based outside trenches.

Much of the problem stems from TV and film portrayals of trenches - well constructed from solid materials; formally laid out; deep, and generally very safe looking. Period photographs often show a much more squalid reality.

Tom

[bodie31]

Even many of the early engagements in 1914 were fought with trenches. During the pursuit from the Marne, for example, many lead BEF units fairly regularly dug rudimentary trenches until they stopped pushing forward at the Aisne on 15 September 1914. Obviously these were not the elaborate systems of 1916-17, but trenches nevertheless. From my research, British units were encouraged to dig whenever they had captured ground. I'm most familiar with 1914, but judging from what I've come accross, I would guess that even during the last 100 days advancing British troops probably dug hasty shelter on an almost nightly basis. Can anyone who knows more about 1918 verify this?

Bodie

[connaughtranger]

The 100 days in 1918... open warfare restored.

Tim

It wasn't till 6th October 1918, the day after the capture of the Beaurevoir Line, that Sir Douglas Haig was able to say with any certainty (that) ".... nothing but the natural obstacles of a wooded and well-watered countryside lay between our armies and Maubeuge"

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I would guess that even during the last 100 days advancing British troops probably dug hasty shelter on an almost nightly basis. Can anyone who knows more about 1918 verify this?

Bodie

I'd have to say that I find that to be an extraordinary claim - certainly if you are saying that they dug anything which in conventional terms could ever be called "trenches". Do you have evidence to support it ? Troops advance a significant distance during the day, with reasonable expectation of doing the same the following day(s), - so they stop at night and dig trenches ? - Really ?

Tom

[Scalyback]

Tom I think you are mis reading the post. Clearly asks any 1918 experts on the matter.

Even with an enemy in retreat you still secure your front at the halt, that is basic miliatry training. So no extraordinary claim in anyway, buliding a full on trench system yes, building "hasty shelter" no.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Tom I think you are mis reading the post. Clearly asks any 1918 experts on the matter.

Even with an enemy in retreat you still secure your front at the halt, that is basic miliatry training. So no extraordinary claim in anyway, buliding a full on trench system yes, building "hasty shelter" no.

"... even during the last 100 days advancing British troops probably dug hasty shelter on an almost nightly basis ..." is a pretty clear statement. The context of the OP (and hence the topic) is "trenches". I'm sorry, but claiming that defensive systems (trenches) were constructed on a daily basis during, especially, the latter stages of the 100 days is simply twaddle.

Making a claim, and then asking for, quote, "Clearly asks any 1918 experts on the matter" - ie "I claim that this happened but I don't know anything about the subject so can somebody who might know anything about what happened please step in and dig me out of the hole I have dug for myself by claiming something happened - at the same time as admitting that I know nothing about the subject ..." - For goodness' sakes !

Tom

[dycer]

From a Battalion History,written in 1919,that had served in France since November 1914.(Somme,Ypres,Cambrai)

The Marne.

"On the 15th July 1918 the Battalion was off once more,this time on secret orders.The way lay through Paris,and the destination was to assist the French in their victorious push,which had begun on the 15th,west of Rhiems.

The fighting on the western edge of the Montagne de Rhiems was the Battalion's first experience of actual open warfare.The dense undergrowth of the Bois de Courton and Bois d'Espilly,and the fact that the fighting was over unknown country,dotted with small woods,farms,mills,and numerous banks and sunken roads,rendered the operation a peculiarly tough and difficult one".

George

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Having a few spare moments during a visit to TNA on Friday I took the opportunity to have a look at a couple of diaries which may be representative of the "mobile" phase of the 100 Days. Trying to randomly pick a "typical looking" unit from one of the Official History maps I went for 2nd Army, XIX Corps, 35th Division - and hence 105th Infantry Brigade and (representing the actual battalions) 15th Bn Cheshire Regiment.

A very significant feature of the advance once it had become "mobile" was that units were constantly moving "through" each other. Bn X advanced, stopped, held position as Bn Y passed through them and continued the advance. Bn Y then stopped as Bn Z passed through them, etc etc etc.

The main German resistance was by artillery and mg fire almost alternating with their infantry standing and resisting, before falling back. Farm buildings and village houses are used as strong-points. Ditches are used for shelter and a means to advance. Hedges are occasionally strung with barbed wire. There seems to be no indication at all of anybody digging-in, certainly not the British units.

I'll try to post, by way of example, 105th Bde's diary for the 20th October 1918. This is very typical for the period. (Appologies for size - I'll try to make it readable).

1st part -

Tom

2nd part -

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

15th Cheshires - same date

[Greg Bloomfield]

It was very handy that there were enough tactically placed ditches, facing the right direction, to shelter all those blokes in and at the same time affording them the correct fields of fire to cover the ground to their front!

As a former soldier I find it incomprehensible that they wouldn't dig in to some degree, especially, as you state, that the main opposition was artillery and machine gun fire.

[phil andrade]

" Scrapes" instead of trenches ?

Big difference.

Phil (PJA)

[Greg Bloomfield]

Even scrapes have to be dug though, and to a tactical plan and not ad hoc.It's hard to believe that at that stage of the war troops would huddle together in remote farmhouses inviting large casualties from an artillery strike or lay out in the open without bothering with at least a rudimentary form of protection afforded by a scrape.

[IRC Kevin]

1/4th King's Own part of 55th Division's move towards the Scheldt October-November 1918.

12th October 18. ‘D’ Company went to the north of Marquillies to an old sugar factory at. Once they had relieved the 10^th King’s, the men began to establish posts around their new location and the next day was spent improving these and setting out large quantities of wire defences and although there was a great deal of enemy shelling, casualties were light and no-one was killed.

22nd October 18 near to Orcq, in a an attack in conjunction with B Coy. 14th Black Watch, against an enemy position in a sunken road, the enemy positions are described as "the enemy trenches were well built and strongly wired."

24th and 25th October 18. Battalion employed digging a series of 20 plus 'V' trenches, each 40 yards in length.

Whilst not a continuous line, the trenches were more a series of strong points, such as found in various parts of the Western Front throughout the War.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

" Scrapes" instead of trenches ?

Big difference.

It would appear that one man's scrape is another man's trench system - and another man's sunken road is an enemy trench.

I've read enough war diaries to have formed an opinion.

Tom

[ge97v]

Plenty of trenches at Cambrai in 1917

Not exactly, the Germans were forced to put up barracades in the middle of the street at Bourlon