Territorials in the "wrong" regiment

[John_Hartley]

The 6th Cheshires had their major drill hall and headquarters at Stockport. Five of the pre-war eight companies drilled there.

There were also company drill halls in the neighbouring Cheshire towns of Hyde and Stalybridge.

But there was also the eighth company which was based in the Derbyshire town of Glossop. As far as I know, it's not that the county boundary had moved to shift the town into Derbyshire. And the Cheshire link appears to go back at least to the

mid 19th century. I can find no reason why the Glossop men should want to link with the Cheshires as opposed to their county brethren in the Sherwoods.

Is this a one-off sort of occurance or were there other examples of men serving with the "wrong" county regiment?

TIA

John

[clive_hughes]

I think there must have been quite a few odd affiliations in the TF line. The Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry had squadrons spread from Birkenhead in Cheshire to Bangor, Caernarfonshire (with a drill station in Beaumaris, Anglesey as well).

Not only that, but apparently some Dubliners crossed the Irish Sea on a regular basis to join the Holyhead company of the 6th (Caernarfonshire & Anglesey) Battalion RWF.

Clive

Edited for incorrect terminology.

Edited 21 October , 2013 by LST_164

[HERITAGE PLUS]

`John

It dates back to the days of the Rifle Volunteers, Glossop was late (1876) in being forming a Corps as there had been opposition to one being formed earlier.

See: http://www.glossopheritage.co.uk/cheshires.htm

Dave

[Guest]

John -

I think TF recruiting areas were primarily county based, but on occasion borders were crossed where remote areas were more accessible from neighbouring counties. Glossop being in the extreme NW corner of Derbyshire with the considerable obstacle of the High Peak would fit this. The Sherwood Foresters had no presence in Glossop in 1914, with the 5th, 6th and 7th TF battalion being Headquartered on Derby, Chesterfiled and Nottingham respectively. The nearest Sherwood Forester battalion (6th Bn) had drill stations dotted around the county, but none on Glossop. The nearest was just 5 miles away at Hayfield - 6th Bn H Coy HQ at Whaley Bridge with drill stations at New Mills, Disley and Hayfield

The Cheshire Yeomanry do not appear to have crossed the border into Derbyshire. A Sqn Derbyshire Yeomanry and B Sqn Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry both had drill stations at Chesterfield in Derbyshire despite Chesterfield being quite a few miles from the Nottinghamshire border. Also the Gloucestershire Yeomanry had a C Sqn HQ at Newport with drill stations as far as Cardiff and Ebbw Vale and other locations in Monmouth (then technically part of England I believe, but not part of Gloucestershire for sure.). I suspect if you search further you will find lots of cross-border recruiting.

I believe the Northumberland Fusiliers recruited in Co Durham at some stage.

MG

[Laird of Camster]

I think there must have been quite a few odd affiliations in the TF line. The Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry had squadrons spread from Birkenhead in Cheshire to Bangor, Caernarfonshire (with a drill station in Beaumaris, Anglesey as well).

Not only that, but apparently some Dubliners crossed the Irish Sea on a regular basis to join the Holyhead company of the 6th (Caernarfonshire & Anglesey) Battalion RWF.

Clive

Edited for incorrect terminology.

Going off topic slightly, but it might be of interest. I have in my collection a Boer War medal to a man from St Asaph (North Wales), who for reasons unknown travelled all the way to Chester, to join the Cheshire Yeomanry as apposed to going just down the road to Denbigh to join the Hussars? Both units deployed to South Africa so one can only guess as to what his reasoning was?

[Scalyback]

Still happens today with what is now the Army Reserve(The TA is dead, long live the reserve!).

Cardiff signals squadron has a sister units from the midlands. However there are other signal units in Bristol(closer!) Never figured that grouping out at any tactical level.

In WW1 or just preceding it there was still a hnag over from the milita and voulnteer movements. So some groupings may be historical from the V movement or as noted above based on needs of travel and recruitment.

[John_Hartley]

The nearest was just 5 miles away at Hayfield - 6th Bn H Coy HQ at Whaley Bridge with drill stations at New Mills, Disley and Hayfield

Yes, that's why it seems so odd to me.

Dave - thanks - I'd come across the article already. Unfortunately it doesnt throw light on the why.

[Scalyback]

Are the county assoication records avalible? This may highlight why they "poached" over the border?

[Guest]

The link with Glossop goes back to 1880 with the absorption of the 23rd Derbyshire RVC based in Glossop.

The 4th Cheshire Rifle Volunteers formed in Bebington in 1859 (one company) expanding to two in 1862 which moved to Rock ferry in 1863 but disappeared in Nov 1864 with the officers appearing under the 35th Cheshire RVC at Bromborough. Another 4th Corps appeared in Nov 1864 in with new officers at Bebington (again) which in its new incarnation became D Coy of the 1st Admin Battalion 4th Cheshires in 1880. This Admin battalion absorbed 9 separately numbered Cheshire Rifle Volunteer Corps AND the 23rd Derbyshire RVC which was formed in Glossop by Capt Commandant Wm Sidebottom in 1876. At some stage it seems the merged formation was renamed the 4th Cheshire (Cheshire & Derby) Rifle Volunteer Corps - reflecting the cross border affiliations. This unit had “L” to “N” Companies (late 23rd Derby RVC) at Glossop.

In December 1887 by GO 181 it became 4th Volunteer Battalion Cheshire Regiment which on the formation of the Territorial Force in 1908 became the 6th Battalion Cheshire Regiment (TF)

The lineage of the nearest Sherwood Foresters battalion shows no link with Glossop......The 2nd Derbyshire RVC had been based in Sudbury from 1859 expanding to two companies in 1860 before being absorbed into the 2nd Admin Bn which in turn was disbanded when the units were absorbed into the 3rd Admin Bn in that year. Just in case this was not confusing enough, the 3rd Admin Bn was consolidated as the new 2nd Derbyshire RVC in 1880. In this year it had H Coy in Whaley Bridge (which had its own lineage via the 18th Derbyshire RVC) and B Coy at Chapel -en-le Frith formed from 7th Derbyshire RVC).....this unit became the 2nd VB Sherwood Foresters in 1887 which in turn formed the 6th Bn Sherwood Foresters (TF) in 1908

So the Derbyshire connection is definitely only via the 23rd Derbyshire RVC formed in 1876 being absorbed in 1880 into what ultimately became the 6th Bn Cheshire Regt (TF).

MG

Source: Tracing the Rifle Volunteers by Ray Westlake.

[Guest]

Hi John. Might be worth posing the question on The Facebook page of the Cheshire Regiment Association Click

The British Newspaper Archive also have many references to Glossop/Cheshire Regt, but too many to search for actual answer. Glossop North End played in the Cheshire league at one time apparently?

Mike

[bill24chev]

May be theTF/Volunteers of Glossop being part of the Cheshire TF and previous Volunteers is due to the fact that there were better transport links to Cheshire by the Great Central Railway through Guide Bridge than to the rest of Derbyshire. Glossop was at the end of a short branch line of the GCR. Until the introduction of rural bus services and almost universal car ownership inter-town travel relied on the Railways.

[clive_hughes]

Going off topic slightly, but it might be of interest. I have in my collection a Boer War medal to a man from St Asaph (North Wales), who for reasons unknown travelled all the way to Chester, to join the Cheshire Yeomanry as apposed to going just down the road to Denbigh to join the Hussars? Both units deployed to South Africa so one can only guess as to what his reasoning was?

His reasons are more difficult to answer: however bear in mind that the existing Yeomanry units as such weren't mobilized for South Africa. They "sponsored" new Imperial Yeomanry companies, who gathered their personnel from the Volunteer Force and civilians as much as the old Yeomanry. His IY enlistment form should make it clear what his previous service, if any, was and also his occupation. He may have come from St.Asaph, but if he was working in Chester (not all that far away actually) maybe that's why he volunteered there?

Clive

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

It may be in Derbyshire uty geographicly it is much closer to Stockport!

[Laird of Camster]

His reasons are more difficult to answer: however bear in mind that the existing Yeomanry units as such weren't mobilized for South Africa. They "sponsored" new Imperial Yeomanry companies, who gathered their personnel from the Volunteer Force and civilians as much as the old Yeomanry. His IY enlistment form should make it clear what his previous service, if any, was and also his occupation. He may have come from St.Asaph, but if he was working in Chester (not all that far away actually) maybe that's why he volunteered there?

Clive

Clive, you make a very good point. If I`m honest its been years since I looked at his papers. What I can remember is that he went out to SA in the second draft. In the first draft there was a soldier with the same unusual surname, who was perhaps related to him hence why he chose to join the Cheshire Yeomanry?

Edited 23 October , 2013 by Laird of Camster

[Guest]

The Cheshire Yeomanry companies that went to South Africa were financed by local subscriptions. It was a particularly well patronised unit with more than its share of wealthy aristocrats. It was arguably the best financed pair of companies and therefore might have attracted volunteers from neighbouring counties. It is worth reading the following;

The Cheshire (Earl of Chester's) Yeomanry 1898 - 1967 by Lt Col Sir Richard Verdin OBE TD which covers this in detail as well as providing in Appendix III the nominal roll of the Cheshire Yeomen who served in the 21st and 22nd Companies of the Imperial Yeomanry in South Africa 1900-1. This includes Regimental numbers, ranks, names, and occupations (21st Coy only) before enlistment. It also includes nominal rolls of subsequent drafts.

It is also worth trying to track down "5,000 miles with the Cheshire Yeomanry in South Africa" by A H Cooke published in 1913.

Keeping this thread on the Great War.... A number of these men served in the Great War. The Army list for May 1915 show seven officers with previous War service. Fortunately the history also provides a nominal roll of the regiment at the outbreak of the War.

MG

[Laird of Camster]

The Cheshire Yeomanry companies that went to South Africa were financed by local subscriptions. It was a particularly well patronised unit with more than its share of wealthy aristocrats. It was arguably the best financed pair of companies and therefore might have attracted volunteers from neighbouring counties. It is worth reading the following;

The Cheshire (Earl of Chester's) Yeomanry 1898 - 1967 by Lt Col Sir Richard Verdin OBE TD which covers this in detail as well as providing in Appendix III the nominal roll of the Cheshire Yeomen who served in the 21st and 22nd Companies of the Imperial Yeomanry in South Africa 1900-1. This includes Regimental numbers, ranks, names, and occupations (21st Coy only) before enlistment. It also includes nominal rolls of subsequent drafts.

It is also worth trying to track down "5,000 miles with the Cheshire Yeomanry in South Africa" by A H Cooke published in 1913.

Keeping this thread on the Great War.... A number of these men served in the Great War. The Army list for May 1915 show seven officers with previous War service. Fortunately the history also provides a nominal roll of the regiment at the outbreak of the War.

MG

MG, I concur fully with your first part. Re the books yes I have both of those. The 5,000 miles book is cracking (albeit expensive) book!! And as you say getting back onto the Great War....

[mikebriggs]

John

On the flip side quite a few men from Disley (in Cheshire I believe) joined "H" Company the 6th Sherwoods.

cheers

Mike

[Guest]

According to K W Mitchinson in his "Engalnd's Last Hope: The Territorial Force 1908-14" the Derbyshire TF County Association allowed the Cheshire TF to recruit in Glossop in return for Derbyshire being allowed to recruit in Whaley Bridge. MG

[Scalyback]

Interesting that county associations had deals as such.

[John_Hartley]

According to K W Mitchinson in his "Engalnd's Last Hope: The Territorial Force 1908-14" the Derbyshire TF County Association allowed the Cheshire TF to recruit in Glossop in return for Derbyshire being allowed to recruit in Whaley Bridge. MG

Interesting - not least with both Glossop & Whaley being close to Stockport and having good transport links to the town.

[scraven]

My grandad was brought up in High Lane near Marple in Cheshire but he always referred to himself as Derbyshire born and bred. The county borders moved but their affiliations with the previous counties stayed

[John_Hartley]

Interesting, as I didnt think the High Lane or Marple areas had ever been in Derbyshire. Perhaps similar to my own experience - I always call myself a Cestrian, having been born in the county. I've also lived much of my life in the traditional boundaries of Cheshire - i.e south of the Mersey - although throughout that time my homes have been in part of Manchester (a definitely Lancastrian city, north of the river, except for the area to the south that it incorporated in the 1930s) or Greater Manchester.

[daggers]

Glossop seems to have been regarded as closer to Manchester/Cheshire/ and even Lancashire in other non-military worlds. I worked for a regional organisation covering Lancs, Greater Manchester and east Cheshire, and Glossop should by rights have been covered by a Midlands equivalent. For generations it and its surrounding area had been embraced by 'my lot' and all parties were happy.

D