Problem researsching Military Medal

[mawfox]

Hi .I am trying to find out if my mothers uncle recieved the M.M. According to Liet-Col F.H.D.C Whitmore who commanded the 10 PWO and the Essex Yeomanry during WW1 pte F.C . Sutton recieved the MM on the 31 Aug 1918 and he died on the 8 Sept 1918 while serving with the Tank Corps.I have looked at the National Archives and in the London Gazette and found nothing.Is there any where else i can look.

[RaySearching]

SUTTON, FREDERICK CHARLES

Rank:

Private

Service No:

305535

Date of Death:

08/09/1918

Regiment/Service:

Tank Corps

Grave Reference

At far end, right of path.

Cemetery

MELTON CEMETERY

Looks like he was not awarded the MM Awarded 15 star BWM and VM

Previously Pte 709 1st Bn Essex Yeo

regards Ray

[mawfox]

Hi i have all that info but the book i mentioned he is in there as recieving the MM

[jdoyle]

Whitmore also has P(ercy) D Manning, Tank Corps, MM on the same date.

no reference to an MM on Mannings MIC on Ancestry but he is in the London Gazette

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31142/supplements/1232

[collectorsguide]

302763 Percy Donald Manning was awarded the MM VIDE THE LONDON GAZETTE OF 24.1.19. His citation is as follows...."FOR CONSPICUOUS GALLANTRY AND DEVOTION TO DUTY NEAR BANCOURT ON 30 AUGUST 1918.HE WAS BADLY WOUNDED IN THE LEFT ARM,BUT ALTHOUGH WEAK FROM LOSS OF BLOOD CONTINUED TO SERVICE HIS GUN FOR A PERIOD OF TWO HOURS,WHEN HE COLLAPSED.HIS COOLNESS ,COURAGE AND CHEERFULNESS THROUGHOUT THE ACTION WERE AN EXAMPLE TO ALL RANKS."

He does NOT appear on any of the casualty rolls as deceased.

Best wishes, Howard (compiler THE MM ROLL 1916 -20)

[collectorsguide]

305535 F C SUTTON WAS A CASUALTY BUT WAS NOT AWARDED THE MM.

78030 FRANK SUTTON 9TH BN TANK CORPS WAS AWARDED THE MM L/GAZ 11.2.19.

HOPE THAT CLARIFIES THE SITUATION FOR YOU . BEST WISHES, HOWARD

[mawfox]

Hi Howard i have Liuet-Col Whitmore's Book and on page 316 he has Pte F C Sutton M.M Tank Corps Died of wounds 8.9.1918

on page 271 He has pte F Sutton Tank corps Recieving The M.M on the 31.8.1918 .So what i am trying to clear up is why he wrote M.M by F.C Sutton

if he did not recieve it.

Regards Malcolm

[RaySearching]

Malcom

There are error's in most databases they just creep in from time to time often during transcribing

and many books also contain errors the errors often only come to light after the book has been published

have you not come across the addendum and correction page on later book reprints

as Howard has pointed out the records show that F C Sutton was not awarded the M.M

I am afraid you will just have to accept the error in Whitmore's book

Regards Ray

[collectorsguide]

As Ray points out contemporary records are often wrong,as in this case.In some cases I have found the man noted as MM WAS AWARDED THE MEDAILLE MILITAIRE,but this is not an option in this case.Sometimes men were recommended for the MM but it was not awarded,yet are noted in the Regimental History as MM.Some entries in Soldiers Died show DCM or MM when not entitled.The Tank Corps Honours and Awards is riddled with errors and so on.Best w, Howard

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Best wishes, Howard (compiler THE MM ROLL 1916 -20)

Howard,

I understand you are working hard to produce a Military Medal Roll 1916-1920, and I am sure many are greatly looking forward to your publication.

Do you have any information on 10414 Corporal Gilbert HANCOCK of the 1st Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps, later of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

Cpl. Hancock's Military Medal award was published in the Supplement to the London Gazette on 11th February, 1919, page 2115.

I have his MM grouping in my Collection ( photo attached ), and have been unable to trace his MM Citation.

Any assistance you may be able to provide regarding his MM Citation or any other information on him, would be much appreciated.

Regards,

LF

[bushfighter]

Good Luck with the compilation Howard - I look forward to its publication.

Harry

[collectorsguide]

Thanks Harry...

10414 Cpl Gilbert Hancock 1/bn KRRC.MM L/GAZ 11.2.19. SERVING 99/BRIGADE 2ND DIVISION.THIS GAZETTE IS FOR THE BATTLE OF AMIENS 1918 AND COVERS THE PERIOD 8.8.18 TO 3.9.18.MOST LIKELY FOR THE BATTLE FOR ALBERT 21ST TO 23RD AUGUST 1918.I MAY HAVE HIS CITATION HOWEVER I AM NOT ABLE TO SEARCH MY ARCHIVE UNTIL THE MANY THOUSANDS I HAVE HAVE BEEN ENTERED ON THE ROLL,AM DOING THE CANADIANS AT PRESENT.

Many citations for this period are for taking command of the platoon when officer/other NCOs were killed.Hope this is helpful

best w, Howard

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Many citations for this period are for taking command of the platoon when officer/other NCOs were killed.Hope this is helpful

best w, Howard

Howard,

This is extremely helpful, and as and when you have the time to look, perhaps you may even have a copy of his MM Citation, which would be wonderful to have.

Regards,

LF

[Pirnmill]

During my research it appears my Great Grandfather Walter Smellie Pte7460 Ist bn Scottish Rifles(Cameronians) received the MM and Bar. I have found reference in the London Gazette (6 July 1917 and 11 March 1919) to both as W Smellie and was wondering if anyone could advise me on how to find out more to confirm that it is the same person. His medal card makes no mention of these awards so I am a bit confused.

[eyman]

Hi Howard i have Liuet-Col Whitmore's Book and on page 316 he has Pte F C Sutton M.M Tank Corps Died of wounds 8.9.1918

on page 271 He has pte F Sutton Tank corps Recieving The M.M on the 31.8.1918 .So what i am trying to clear up is why he wrote M.M by F.C Sutton

if he did not recieve it.

Regards Malcolm

Hi Malcolm

Just to confirm what you have had from others: your relative did not receive the MM. Whitmore made a mistake, probably confused him with P D Manning.

Here is the info that I have on Frederick Charles Sutton

Enlisted A Squadron 28 June 1911

To France with 1/1st EY 29 November 1914

Demoted L Cpl to Private 24 December 1916

Renumbered as 80036

Wounded in the charge at Monchy-le-Preux 11 April 1917

Served with 10th Bn Tank Corps (same as P D Manning - perhaps this is how the confusion arose?)

While Soldiers Died shows him simply dying at home, Whitmore records him as died of wounds - this could be the after effects of 1917, or perhaps he was wounded again? Or may be Whitmore made another mistake?

Best wishes

Ian

[mawfox]

Hi All Thanks for your help in clearing all that up .

Thank you Ian Because you have cleared up another problem up with his rank where did you get all that info from .

regards Malcolm

[dsms]

Trying to find any information regarding the award of the MM to

William C H Sellens Cpl RFA no.54806 shown on medal card as receiving the award whist acting Sgt with a reference RFA/185B page 16997

No date is given on the card as to date of award but notice appears during Dec 1917 in London Gazette, without a citation.

His medal is inscribed '54806 Cpt W.C.H Sellens A87 BDE R.F.A'

We believe records for RFA were destroyed during WW2 and so far finding any information has drawn a blank and locating a war diary equally elusive.

Would anyone possibly have any ideas where we may try to obtain any details.

Any info greatly appreciated

[collectorsguide]

From the MM Roll...SMELLIE WALTER PTE 7460 1/BN SCO RIFS. MM L/GAZ 9.7.17. BAR L/GAZ 13.3.19.Cofirmed as your man. best w, Howard

[collectorsguide]

From the MM Roll ... SELLENS W H C CPL 54806 SERVED "A" BATTERY 87TH BRIGADE RFA ,19TH WESTERN DIVISION.LONDON GAZETTE 12.12.17.AN AWARD FOR YPRES SEPT/OCT 1917 ,MENIN ROAD RIDGE OR POLYGON WOOD.20.9.17 TO 3.10.17.Best w, Howard

[dsms]

Howard,

Many thanks for that information, very much appreciated

Dave

[Messina1915]

Howard,

Do you have anything in your database about 883637 Private Charles Cleveland Eastland, 50th Bn CEF? I tried having a look at the London Gazette website but quickly remembered how difficult the search was to find anything with... Many Thanks.

Cheers,

Carole.

[Pirnmill]

From the MM Roll...SMELLIE WALTER PTE 7460 1/BN SCO RIFS. MM L/GAZ 9.7.17. BAR L/GAZ 13.3.19.Cofirmed as your man. best w, Howard

Many thanks for this. I am in the process of trying to pin down the likely dates for the actions which resulted in him receiving the awards and I have also just purchased your excellent book The Great War Medal Collectors Guide, the information in the book is superb. As well as my own family I am also researching the soldiers from Arran and the book will be invaluable for this.

Fiona

[topgun1918]

Carole

Not sure what problems you've encountered, but my search took less than five minutes (not bad for a two-fingered typist!)

The announcement of the award of Charles Eastland's MM appears on page 2130 of the Fifth Supplement to the London Gazette of 7 February 1919 (Gazette number 31173) published on 11 February.

"His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men:-

...
883637 Pte. Eastland, C. C., 50th Bn., Alberta R.
..."

Regards

Graeme

[collectorsguide]

Hi Carole,The entry on the MM Roll reads.....EASTLAND C.C. PTE 883637 50 BN CEF. MM L/GAZ 11.2.19.

KIA 27.9.18. BURIED TRIANGLE CEMETERY ,INCHY EN ARTOIS FRANCE.HIS CANADIAN MM CARD DOES NOT SHOW HIS CITATION BUT MM LIKELY WON BETWEEN 8.8.18 AND 6.9.18.THE AWARD WAS ANNOUNCED IN CORPS ORDER 1899 OF 11.9.18.THIS WOULD BE A FEW DAYS AFTER THE DEED.now you need to look at 50 Can Inf ops around 1st to 8th Sept 1918.BEST W, Howard.(info courtesy MM Roll Williamson/Bate.)

[Miffy]

Sorry to jump in on this but I'm hoping you can help me find where to look next in the search for my great-grandfather's information.

we've discovered quite a bit of information, such as his service dates, the date he was awarded the MM, the Gazette entry announcing the award, his medical discharge date and reason, the date he was awarded his medal while in military hospital, even who it was presented by but have come to a complete stop in trying to find out why it was awarded. The information I have is as follows:-

Pte J Field of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (the J is for John)

Service number: 18787

Gazette info: issue 30340 16/10/1917

Gazette page: 10719

The medal was awarded on 18 October 1917 and actually presents to him in October 1918 while in hospital in Northants after being brought home suffering from pneumonia and nephritis, which we are assuming was trench nephritis. We also have a copy of a letter from the presenting regiment advising the War Office of the date and time on which the presentation would take place but stating in it that the reason/act leading to the award was not known to them. We do not have any note as to whether the War Office replied to fill in the details.

Does anyone know where we can go next to try and find out his story as the discovery of his war record has come as a total shock to my mum who had no idea her grandfather was on the front line let alone having received a medal for gallantry. Any help is greatly appreciated.