British Soldiers in Canadian or Australian Regiments

[bickerton16/625]

Hello Folks,

Can anyone please advise me where I might find out further information about British soldiers who served and died in Australian or Canadian Regiments?

I have come across a handful of these men who are on the Rothbury, Thropton and Lowick memorials in Northumberland and I would like to find out a bit more about them if possible for a couple of community projects I'm involved in.

Any pointers or advice would be gratefully received.

Best regards

Duncan

[Waggoner]

Duncan,

Are you referring to men from the UK who were living in Canada and who enlisted in the CEF? If so, their service records are available from the Library and Archives Canada in Ottawa and their Attestation Papers are available on line from the same source. This link should take you to the relevant page - http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/index-e.html

All the best,

Gary

[Neil Mackenzie]

Duncan

There were thousands of them my great uncle (see my signature) being just one of them.

All Australian service records are available online so once you have a name then you can research them more easily than if they served in the British Army.

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/army-wwi.aspx

[Guest]

Hi Duncan. Mapping Our Anzacs is an excellent site, a bit of a quirky search, but worth persevering. You will need to register. Canadian service records are not so easy come by, and you might need to hire a a Canadian pal to photograph them.

Mike

Edit 17:27

Click on " search options "

then click in the " By place " box and type in the town/village you are interested in.

[Let Erin Remember]

I am aware that a recent lecture given at Parliament House in Australia gave a figure of 6,600 for the number of Irish born soldiers in the AIF. Is there any figure for the Irish who served in the Canadian, South African, and Newfoundland Forces?

The number of war dead commemorated at the Irish National War Memorial Gardens is 49,400, but as this includes many who were not 'born' in Ireland, some modern historians list the figure of Irish war dead as circa 35,000. This is further qualified by the figure 230,000 deemed to be the number of Irishmen who fought. As this hadn't taken into account those who served with the Dominions, I am anxious to ascertain the actual number of Irishmen who served in the colours during the Great War.

"Let Erin Remember them with pride;

As for her freedom, they too died"

Séamus

[bickerton16/625]

Folks,

Thanks for the quick responses, I'll start following these leads through - grateful for your help.

Just for clarification the men I am researching are Northumbrian lads who probably enlisted in local (or British) regiments and ended up for one reason or another in a Canadian or Australian formation.

I know it was common for regiments to be bolstered by men from wherever there was some surplus but I didn't realise the practice applied across Empire forces (if indeed it did).

There's certainly no records that I have come across in the usual UK sources.

thanks again....

[Chester837]

Duncan,

A local man from my village joined the 11th Bn Australian Infantry at Blackboy Hill, Western Australia on the 5th Sept 1914. He was living in Australia, working as a miner. A record states that 23% of the 11 Bn were British born.

Cheers,

Chester

[ss002d6252]

I know it was common for regiments to be bolstered by men from wherever there was some surplus but I didn't realise the practice applied across Empire forces (if indeed it did).

Its not something I've come across but it would be interesting to find out if it did - the nearest I've seem in men enlisting directly in to Canadian units that came to the UK pre MSA 1916.

Craig

[regimentalrogue]

While there were many UK born men who enlisted in the CEF in Canada, much stricter rules applied for those who tried to enlist in the CEF in England: CEF Enlistments in England

As an example, the Sailing List for the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion identifies (of 1188 men of whom 1032 have listed countries of birth): 510 were born in England, 120 from Scotland, 41 from Ireland, and 13 from Wales.

[Let Erin Remember]

While there were many UK born men who enlisted in the CEF in Canada, much stricter rules applied for those who tried to enlist in the CEF in England: CEF Enlistments in England

As an example, the Sailing List for the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion identifies (of 1188 men of whom 1032 have listed countries of birth): 510 were born in England, 120 from Scotland, 41 from Ireland, and 13 from Wales.

If one were to extrapolate from the above figure, could the number of Irish born who served in the CEF be in the region of 25,000 or about 4%?

Séamus

[bickerton16/625]

Thinking about my original question, I had made the assumption that, as was common in the British Army, men were moved around more or less at random to bolster regiments where extra bodies were required. I had further assumed that this could have occurred across empire forces as well.

However, the first soldier I followed through (Jacob Coxon Bell) appears to have emigrated to Canada and then joined up with the CEF to return to fight. His late parents were from Newcastle thirty miles from the Rothbury memorial upon which he is commemorated - I now need to establish his connection with my village. fascinating stuff...

now to try the Australian records....

thanks again

[bickerton16/625]

Sure enough, I shouldn't make assumptions..

My Australian soldier (Edward Wilson Sanderson) turned out to have emigrated also and joined up with the AIF on 20.10.16 - he was killed in action on 9.10.17

Chester - guess what, he joined up at Blackboy Hill, WA as well.... small world

[regimentalrogue]

If one were to extrapolate from the above figure, could the number of Irish born who served in the CEF be in the region of 25,000 or about 4%?

Séamus

That might be hard to estimate, the figure for any given unit would vary depending on what part of the country they were recruited in, and during what period.

I've only done the figures for a few units recruited in one area of southwest Ontario. The other Sailing Lists I have looked at gave the following results:

33rd Cdn Inf Bn - 61 Irish born soldiers out of 1499

71st Cdn Inf Bn - 47 out of 1293

142nd Cdn Inf Bn - 12 out of 607

168th Cdn Inf Bn - 11 out of 721

[keithmroberts]

Bickerton 16/65

All the men I have researched from UK memorials who died in the Australian or Canadian armies had emigrated pre war and joined up in those countries. There may be exceptions, but I'm sure they are few. let local newspapers be your informant, as well as school and parish magazines. There is a vast amount out there.

Keith

[Fedelmar]

There were thousands of them ... not hundreds ... thousands ....

[Let Erin Remember]

Thanks for your observations and figures for the Irish born enlistments in the 4 CEF Bns.

I'm sure that there were many first generate Canadian Irish who served in the CEF, but these can't be identified readily.

Séamus

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

You appear to have it now, yes British soldiers were not sent to reinforce aussie units.

British Soldiers and others were attached to AIF units from time to time but always as there own country soldiers not as aussies.

The main way British soldiers came to be in aussie units, was as you mention, they came to aussie and enlisted there, or joined the AIF from recruiting units in Britian.

Not Surpising we also have war memorials with British, Canadian and others on them where aussies traveled to other countries to enlist.

At the start of the war many British Reservists were living in Austraila and most traveled to britian with the first convoys while a small number enlisted in the AIF.

S.B

[kenora]

Seamus my Great Uncle Jim was from Dundalk and emigrated to Canada in 1911. He joined the 144th Inf Batt (Royal Winnipeg Rifles), later moved to the 8th Batt and was killed at Passchendeale. He mentioned in his letters that there were several other Irish born soldiers he was aware of, not just in his Battalion but in his Company .He often mentioned the large numbers of Irish coming to Canada in 1911 - 1915 period. From what he recounted practically all of them that he knew of joined the CEF.

Shane

[Let Erin Remember]

Thanks for that Shane. No doubt you have taken note of the links given in post #9 above by regimentalrogue. It would be of interest to know if the CEF records are more easy to navigate thn toes of the BEF on Ancestry.

Anyway let's keep their memory alive. It's heartening to see the number of memorials that have been unveiled in recent weeks to Irishmen, and indeed women too, in Wexford, Waterford and in Birt, Offaly. As was said in an orations given at Waterford last Sunday, where a marble wall listing 1100 men an women from Co Waterford was unveiled, "now they have come home."

Beirut bua agus Beannacht ,

Séamus

Oops,

For toes above read those!

[kenora]

Hi Seamus. I found the sites very useful and easy. . The CEF war diaries are available for free download . I was also able to get a copy of Jim's service file, though I had to pay for that. I was lucky though in having his original letters so didn't have to go hunting for his battalion or service number.

It's indeed great to see the memorials being unveiled. I imagine in the next four years there will be countless more. I'd like to see one in Dundalk. Jim is remembered on memorials in France and Belgium, and one in Canada, but it would be great to see him on one in his hometown. Some years ago purely by chance I found a brass plate remembering him on a pew in his parish church of Blackrock. The family had completely forgotten about it.

I couldn't find confirmation anywhere of the number of Irish born in the CEF either. However a book I have about the County Louth dead in the Great War says that 24 Louth men joined the CEF (15 killed).

Shane

[nigelfe]

Basically Britons residing in Australia, Canda, etc, joined the Aust, Cdn, etc army. Australians, etc, residing in UK joined the British army. That said I've come across one case of an Australian travelling to UK to join the British regt of his choice, DLI IIRC.

[rolt968]

There is a interesting example on the Edzell war memorial.

Sergeant William Thomas Dunbar was born in India.

His father, step father and maternal grandfather were all professional soldiers. He retired from RGA on 23 February 1913 as CSM (sic) having served 23 years and 40 days. He arrived in Halifax, N.S. on 25 September 1913 to join the Canadian Army.

He died (as a sergeant) in hospital in Halifax on 13 March 1919.

I have read his UK soldier's record and am waiting for the Canadian one.

Could he have been recruited from the UK because of his experience? Or was he going to Canada on spec? The regular Canadian army was very small in 1913.

Roger.

[adk46canada]

Roger,

He probably was recruited for his experience. Given the small size of the Canadian regular army, called the Permanent Force, of about 3,000 men it was not uncommon to recruit experience NCO and officers were specialized skill sets for the Canadian forces. The limited numbers and even more limited budget did not allow for the development of the full range of specialists needed. His RGA expertise was probably needed for the defensive batteries defending Canada's ports.

Thank-you

Bill Stewart

[rolt968]

Roger,

He probably was recruited for his experience. Given the small size of the Canadian regular army, called the Permanent Force, of about 3,000 men it was not uncommon to recruit experience NCO and officers were specialized skill sets for the Canadian forces. The limited numbers and even more limited budget did not allow for the development of the full range of specialists needed. His RGA expertise was probably needed for the defensive batteries defending Canada's ports.

Thank-you

Bill Stewart

I suspect that William Dunbar might have found it difficult to settle into civilian life and was willing to find more army service.

His father and step-father were both gunners. He was born in India and enlisted aged 15 in India. Of his RGA service (23 + years) only 7 years were at home and more than 12 in India.

Roger.

[rolt968]

In Irish Regiments in the World Wars (Murphy & Embleton - Osprey) there is a picture the Canadian Irish Rangers recruiting in Cork in December 1916. I wonder if this was a reaction to the drop in recruitment in Ireland to the British Army following the Easter Rising.

Roger.