Kings Royal Rifles

[MFS]

Thanks for your help Liz andMBrockway:

I now have a handle on what kind of war my Pop had. It seems he spent a bit of time crossing the channel back and forth. I shall have to go back to my sources and see which battles fit the dates Liz has given for his BEF postiings. I take it BEF means British Expeditionary Force? I wonder what the upper and lower extemities refers to, would they be two separate woundings and/or additional to the GW thigh? One wonders. He did have a lot of trouble after the war just getting around. I shall post a photo or two later this week a soon as I can organise the family. It's a lot of fun trying to convince rellies in Perth West Australia to scan images and then email them to me in Tasmania. Technology is a wonderfu thing if you know how to use it.

Re medals, my cousin has them. He's a Potter, I'm not so he inherited them. I do know Pop had a Silver Badge and I seem to remember there were three medals all up, probably the victory medal, the Badge and another, possibly a campaign medal.

Re primary sources: My mother, Edward Potter's daughter, has very poor copies of the documents I posted, they were obtained many years ago by a relative in Blighty who was researching her family history.

Again, thankyou all for your help. I hope my input has been of some assistance for a researcher somewhere.

Micheal (Note: it's not spelled the other way)

[MBrockway]

Micheal - could you ask your cousin to tell you the exact inscriptions on Edward's medals please?

We would expect him to have the British War Medal, the Victory Medal and the Silver War Badge. The third medal you remember may be a WW2 medal.

Knowing the exact inscriptions will be a tremendous help to us.

Cheers,

Mark

PS Apologies for the name misspellings earlier.

[MFS]

Mark, my Pop was Edward Potter 21642 and/or R21649, (possibly KRRC) and 562373 in the Labour Corps, there is no mention of the RWF on his Medal Index Card and the bloke in the photo isn't him, according to his daughter, my mum.

So I hope that's as clear as mud in a beer bottle.

He was discharged with impairment and was awarded the Silver War Badge for his wounds, but alas no pension. During WW2 he was bedridden, my gran had to work in a uniform factory in Perth WA, using a 9Lb steam iron for twelve hours a day to support the family.

The medals were inherited by my cousin, whom I've seen once since 1956, his whereabouts are presently unknown to me. I remember vaguely from chilldhood that there were three "medals" one must have been his Silver Badge the other two the victory medal and the British war medal.

Apology accepted, and mine proffered for confusing the issue by posting a photo that's not of my Pop. He MAY be a Brind, or a different Potter or just a friend of the family, the only folk who might know are long dead.

Thankyou to all for your input, very much appreciated.

[MBrockway]

Mark, my Pop was Edward Potter 21642 and/or R21649, (possibly KRRC) and 562373 in the Labour Corps

Micheal,

For the sake of thoroughness, how have you connected those service numbers so confidently to your grandfather?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello MFS

Thanks for posting the information about your grandfather. I see you have already looked at The Long Long Trail - the information on 21/KRRC there became garbled when Chris Baker, the owner (and also founder of this forum), redesigned it. I did write telling him this years ago but he hasn't changed it. The 21st Bn did not land at Le Havre on 30 March 1916 but on 4-5 May.

...

Liz

Hi Micheal (and Mark)

Sorry, have been off the forum for a couple of days, but I wouldn't have been able to help with the family friend in the fusiliers anyway. As regards your grandfather, even though we know he didn't spend long in the 21st Bn, I just wanted to clarify where the battalion was in the early stages. I see that The Long Long Trail has now been corrected in that the stray line with the wrong (March 1916) date for going to France has been deleted, but it still has unclear dates for Helmsley and Aldershot. It should read

October 1915: moved to Helmsley

January 1916: moved to Aldershot...

so we can say, for a start, that Edward Potter didn't go to join the battalion at Helmsley but at Aldershot (EDIT if at all), before being transferred to the 24th Bn.

The rest of that long sheet remains to be transcribed and interpreted! Will have a look later in the day.

Liz

Edited 18 October , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

...

He was discharged with impairment and was awarded the Silver War Badge for his wounds, but alas no pension. During WW2 he was bedridden, my gran had to work in a uniform factory in Perth WA, using a 9Lb steam iron for twelve hours a day to support the family.

...

Those papers (discharge and Silver War Badge) are on Ancestry. It's clear he had a lot of ill health quite apart from being wounded...as the vicar said at the time it's surprising he was ever sent to France and made to suffer more.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

A very small point, Micheal, given that your grandfather didn't go anywhere with the 21st Bn - but you said on the thread about the man in the photograph that your grandfather should have been in A Company 21/KRRC. This is quite true, theoretically, as A Company was for men from the North and East Ridings, but it appears to have filled up quickly and by December men were being put in other companies, so you can't be sure unless it's stated on the papers.

Liz

[MFS]

Thanks Liz, and Mark.

Firstly, my only interest is in Edward Potter with the 21642 number (and 562373 Labour corps), His wounds and apparent medical history tally with what my Pop had to deal with later in life.

I have at last managed to obtain and attached, a rather poor quality image that I know for sure is my Pop, as above, in his uniform, puttees and all. Is that a laniard under his left shoulder? The cap badge doesn't look like a KRRC though, so we have more confusion methinks.

The second photo is of Edward Potter (third from right, middle row standing next to nurse) and fellow wounded. I don't know where or when it was taken.

I have another photo of him that was produced by the Malton Photo Studio, which tallies with his enrolment details.

I hope the images assist your enquiries.

Thanks again, Micheal.

[MBrockway]

Thanks Liz, and Mark.

Firstly, my only interest is in Edward Potter with the 21642 number (and 562373 Labour corps), His wounds and apparent medical history tally with what my Pop had to deal with later in life.

..

Thanks again, Micheal.

Micheal,

So have you connected your grandfather Edward with Edward Potter 21642 KRRC/562373 LC solely on the wounds and medical history in that man's Service Record?

Or are there address or next of kin details in that man's service record which you can link to your family?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

...

I have at last managed to obtain and attached, a rather poor quality image that I know for sure is my Pop, as above, in his uniform, puttees and all. Is that a laniard under his left shoulder? The cap badge doesn't look like a KRRC though, so we have more confusion methinks.

No, it doesn't. Could it possibly be a Labour Corps badge? Doesn't look like that to me either, just comparing with the badge here. Perhaps someone on the uniforms subforum could help with that.

EDIT The way it spreads out at the bottom looks more like Royal Artillery.

Liz

[MBrockway]

The crossed pick and rifle badge was only in use from Oct 1918 onwards.

Before then, the Labour Corps used the General Service cap badge based on the Royal Arms.

This photo could be that badge, but IIRC there was no scroll underneath the arms, and there appears to be a scroll under the badge in the photo.

[MFS]

Well folks, some good news! I was searching the Australian Archives for immigration records of my Pop ((to no avail) and voila! Up came the following info, shich I have copied and pasted verbatim:

POTTER Edward - 562373 Labour Corps [also served as 21649 King's Royal Rifle Corps].

The URL for confirmation is http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=30814193

He apparently also served in the Perth battalion of the Australian CMF, and is recorded thus: POTTER EDWARD : Service Number - W5775 : Date of birth - 31 Oct 1892 : Place of birth - YORK ENGLAND : Place of enlistment - PERTH WA : Next of Kin - POTTER ALICE

So, we have confirmation from an independent source. I must admit I was a bit worried that I might have given duff gen, there are thousands of Potters in Yorkshire.

I hope it makes clearer the view through the beer bottle. All I ask is if it's possible to post details of his active service. I have managed to cross reference the posting details that Liz provided with some of the battalion's battle history, but as Liz pointed out, he probably didn't stick with the 21st from day one. He wasn't a well boy.

Thanks to Mark and Liz for all your help, very much appreciated to be able to learn about my Pop.

My mother will be chuffed to do the same, he never spoke of his war service and mum never asked, so she hasn't a clue what he actually did in WW1.

Thanks.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

That’s great, Micheal. The link doesn’t work for me (says timed out) but I’ll leave that side of things to you, except to note regarding the Australian service that an Edward Potter’s birth was registered in the quarter beginning October 1893 at Malton, according to my Ancestry search; but there are often discrepancies between different records and after all York was the nearest big place. However, there’s no point in trying to match his movements to those of the 21^st Battalion, as his record shows clearly he was never with them after the first few weeks in England, and perhaps even then was with the reserve battalion and not at Aldershot. You need to look at the narrow column second left for the battalion number.

Just starting on the sheet you posted (which seems to be from Ancestry from its appearance and number 0849):

KRRC Bn 21 Joined Home Rfn 8. 3.16

“ Bn 24 Posted home Rfn 5. 4.16

“ No 1 B[ase] Depot France 25. 7.16

“ Bn 9 Posted BEF France 30 Jul 1916 (stamp very faint) Rfn

“ D Posted Home Rfn 11.11.16

Then he went to the 7 Rifle Brigade but I’ll have to leave that till later.

You can see from The Long Long Trail that 24^th Bn was a Reserve Bn formed in April 1916 from the depot companies of the 21^st Bn, and moved to Northumberland (Blyth and Cambois) in May 1916. It seems quite likely therefore that Edward Potter didn’t join the battalion at Aldershot at all, given that his enlistment with them wasn’t approved at Skipton till April according to another part of the record, but went straight to the reserve battalion.

Then he went to France in July and served with the 9^th Battalion.

Liz

[johnboy]

Is there a date for enlistment in Australia.?

[MBrockway]

Is there a date for enlistment in Australia.?

World War Two

[MBrockway]

Micheal,

As promised, I've had a stab at a timeline for Edward Potter, R/21469 KRRC from the 42 page Service Record. Hope it's clear, but you may need to cross-reference some items with the Mother Site.

Cheers,

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TIMELINE FOR SERVICE OF EDWARD POTTER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 1916 - de facto assigned to Army Reserve Class B under Military Service Acts 1916

Edward POTTER
Address: Scackleton, Hovingham, Malton, Yorks.
Labourer, Unmarried, Age: 22 yrs 4 months, Height: 5' 6", Chest: 37", expansion 3"
Next of kin: John Potter, father, same address

07 Mar 1916:
Called up for service. Assigned KRRC Service Number R/21649

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
07 Mar 1916 - 24 Jul 1916: Home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
08 Mar 1916:
Joined 21/KRRC reserve companies, Richmond, Yorks. NB did not join battalion.

05 Apr 1916:
posted 24/KRRC

07 Apr 1916:
acceptance approved by Lt. <unreadable>, KRRC at Skipton

20 Jul 1916:
Potter's Will lodged with Rifles Record Office

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 Jul 1916 - 10 Nov 1916: BEF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 Jul 1916:
posted No 1 Base Depot, France
http://www.1914-1918.net/infantrybasedepots.html

26 Jul 1916:
posted 9/KRRC (in 42nd Brigade, 14th (Light) Division)

18 Oct 1916:
transferred to 7/RB (Rifle Brigade) (in 41st Brigade, 14th (Light) Division)
Assigned RB Service Number B/203729
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 Nov 1916 - 03 Feb 1917: Home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 Nov 1916:
posted Rifles Depot, Winchester
re-transferred back to KRRC.
Reverted to his former KRRC Service Number R/21469

20 Nov 1916:
admitted Scottish National Red Cross Hospital, Cardonald, Glasgow

05 Jan 1917:
granted furlough 06 Jan to 16 Jan 1917 by Lt.-Col. Harold CHAFFER, OC, Scottish National Red Cross Hospital, Bellahouston, Glasgow
Leave to be spent at home
still referenced as 7/RB
MO considered Potter fit for Duty

16 Jan 1917:
posted 5/KRRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
04 Feb 1917 - 16 Jul 1917: BEF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
04 Feb 1917:
posted No 1 Base Depot, BEF
posted 10/KRRC (59th Brigade, 20th (Light) Division)

18 Feb 1917:
admitted No 3 Stationary Hospital, Rouen with Bronchitis (severe)

02 Mar 1917:
Letter from Rev Burton of Casterton, Kirkby Lonsdale seeking information on Edward Potter reported dangerously ill in France

23 Mar 1917:
Return of Potter's records from Rifle Brigade Records Office requested by KRRC Records Office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17 Jul 1917 - 04 Jan 1918: Home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17 Jul 1917:
posted Rifles Depot, Winchester

17 Jul 1917:
admitted unidentified Hospital

24 Jul 1917:
admitted Military Hospital, Woburn (Woburn Abbey)
On the outbreak of the Great War in August 1914, a Military Hospital containing 102 beds was equipped at Woburn Abbey by Mary, Duchess of Bedford, and maintained by her for six years. In 1917 the Hospital was appointed one of the Special Surgical Military Hospitals. Convoys of wounded were received direct from France, and 2453 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men passed through the Hospital.

27 Sep 1917:
granted furlough 28 Sep to 07 Oct 1917
by unidentified officer, 1st Eastern General Hospital, Cambridge
Leave to be spent at home
referenced as 10/KRRC, B Company
MO considered Potter fit for light duty & likely to be fit for Service Overseas within three months (Command Depot)

The First Eastern General Hospital was a military hospital established by Royal Army Medical Corps in 1908 provisional upon mobilisation. Many of Addenbrooke's medical and nursing staff served on its staff in both world wars. The Matron of Addenbrooke's was also the Matron of the First Eastern. During World War I the hospital had its headquarters in Trinity College, with beds in the Leys School and in the grounds of Trinity College, and later in temporary buildings on the cricket grounds of Clare College and King's College to the south of Burrell's Walk, with over 1,500 beds by the end of 1915. The hospital continued its war duties until 1920. Wounded soldiers were also offered beds in Addenbrooke's itself, Albert, Griffiths and Bowtell wards being commandeered for this purpose and regarded as an extension of the First Eastern. The last soldiers were withdrawn from these wards in March 1919, 2885 having been admitted since 1915.
Copyright © Roll-of-Honour.com
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Medical/CambridgeEasternNo1Hospital.html

12 Oct 1917:
posted Irish Command Depot, Tipperary
http://www.1914-1918.net/command%20depots.htm

18 Oct 1917:
admitted Irish Command Depot, Tipperary

22 Dec 1917:
posted 6/KRRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05 Jan 1918 - 30 Mar 1918: BEF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05 Jan 1918:
posted No 1 Base Depot, BEF
posted 8/KRRC (in 41st Brigade, 14th (Light) Division)

21 Mar 1918:
gunshot wound left hip and back

22 Mar 1918:
further wound detail ..
gunshot wound upper & lower extremities Casualty List Reference HA20831
gunshot wound thigh Cas Ref HB10939

This is likely to have been during 8/KRRC's retreat from URVILLERS to JUSSY on 21-23 March 1918 during Operation Michael in the German 1918 Spring Offensive or Kaiserschlacht.

See this Topic here: Captured Major - Spring Offensive 1918
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Mar 1918 - 11 Jul 1919: Home
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Mar 1918:
posted Rifles Depot, Winchester

Unknown date

admitted War Hospital, Exeter

27 May 1918:
granted furlough 31 May to 10 Jun 1918
by R.?Hedan, Exeter Military Hospital, Leave to be spent at home
referenced as 8/KRRC
MO considered Potter fit for Employment

11 Jun 1918:
posted 6/KRRC

15 Jun 1918:
arrived 6/KRRC. Report from OC 6/KRRC

06 Jul 1918:
Holm Place, Sheerness, Isle of Sheppey (6/KRRC). Returns 1 day late from Special Leave.
09 Jul 1918:
Admonished and deducted 3 days pay.

17 Aug 1918:
compulsorily transferred to Eastern Command Labour Centre (ECLC), Sutton (?Surrey)
(training centre for the Labour Corps covering the Eastern counties of Home Command)
assigned Labour Corps Service Number 502373
posted 302nd Reserve Labour Company, Labour Corps (apparently the ECLC Depot company)

08 Oct 1918:
posted 505 Agricultural Company, Labour Corps, Richmond, Yorks.
(this unit was originally Yorkshire Regiment ("Green Howards"), No 2 Agricultural Company: formed in Richmond in February 1917 and later split and re-designated as 407 and 505 Agricultural Companies of the Labour Corps.)

29 ?Mar 1919:
posted 407 Agricultural Company, Labour Corps (located at Richmond, Yorks. - see above)
interesting photo on Pal and LC guru Ivor Lee's website:
http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/Pages/The%20Labour%20Corps.html

07 Jul 1919: records sent to Discharge Transfer Centre

11 Jul 1919: Discharged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 Jul 1919 onwards: post service
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Aug 1919:
Disablement assessed at 30%. Pension granted 8/3d (~42p!) from 12 Jul 1919. Review in 52 weeks.
Disability -
1. Bronchitis
2. Gunshot Wound left hip & back
3. Appendicitis
Silver War Badge authorised

27 Jan 1921: Will returned to Edward Potter by Labour Corps Record Office

06 Dec 1921: British War Medal & Victory Medal despatched by Labour Corps, Nottingham

09 Dec 1921: British War Medal & Victory Medal received by Edward Potter

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Mark, that is superb - it must have taken you ages and is so clearly laid out, with additional information as well. And thanks for clarifying that Potter did not join the 21st Bn at all - I thought it looked as if he didn't but couldn't be sure.

I think Micheal will be delighted when he sees it. Micheal, 'the Mother Site' is the Long Long Trail, in case you aren't familiar with Mark's term!

Liz

[tommo21]

Liz, just found this web site with the great forum. My great uncle was in the "yeoman rifles" Harry Thompson C/12149 killed during the battle for flyers 16th Sept 1916. He was missing no known grave nd commemorated on the Theipval memorial. His family did not speak of him and we only found out about him around2001 when my dad's aunt sent him a photograph and his commemorative silks. She said that she had kept the silks in her bible and that she was not going to be around long so she wanted my dad to have the photo &silks as he was named after his uncle (dad never knew this !!!).

[tommo21]

Liz, sorry I broke the thread( my new tablet started the write in Spanish !!!). My great uncle "H" is remembered on the memorial in Goole (where he lived before joining up) and on a memorial inside St Stephens church in (Bradford where his family moved after he joined up). I did some research about 6 years ago but my lines of research dried up. HAVING FOUND this thread my interest is 're kindled". I notice that posters on the site have recruitment details etc. Could you point me in the right direction as I would love to find out where signed up and if he did so with friends.

[MBrockway]

Mark, that is superb - it must have taken you ages and is so clearly laid out, with additional information as well. And thanks for clarifying that Potter did not join the 21st Bn at all - I thought it looked as if he didn't but couldn't be sure.

I think Micheal will be delighted when he sees it. Micheal, 'the Mother Site' is the Long Long Trail, in case you aren't familiar with Mark's term!

Liz

Yep - it certainly did take ages, but so far nothing heard back from Micheal. Ho hum :-)

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Tommo

Delighted to hear from you, but we should adjourn to the thread I mentioned on the first page of this thread:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151966

as this one turned out to be about someone who never served with the Yeoman Rifles, whereas your great-uncle certainly did.

It is in the subforum Classic Threads, and I haven't added anything to it for a while, though I have a lot of information I haven't put on it.

If I post something there mentioning your posts here, I hope you'll find it.

Liz

PS You've reminded me about this thread - Mark did so much work on this man's record but it doesn't look as though Micheal ever saw it.

EDIT Just seen Mark's rueful comment!

Edited 18 November , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne

[MBrockway]

Hello Tommo

Delighted to hear from you, but we should adjourn to the thread I mentioned on the first page of this thread:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=151966

as this one turned out to be about someone who never served with the Yeoman Rifles, whereas your great-uncle certainly did.

It is in the subforum Classic Threads, and I haven't added anything to it for a while, though I have a lot of information I haven't put on it.

If I post something there mentioning your posts here, I hope you'll find it.

Liz

PS You've reminded me about this thread - Mark did so much work on this man's record but it doesn't look as though Micheal ever saw it.

EDIT Just seen Mark's rueful comment!

Rueful indeed Liz! And your diplomatic response to Tommo is luckily much less forthright than the one I had already started drafting - LOL! You know how cross I get about thread hi-jacking.

"Battle of Flyers"! Don't you just love it :-)

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hi Mark

I think when people come on to the forum for the first time it's easy to get confused as to where to put the enquiry.

Yes, that's a great typo, but I daren't throw the first stone where funny typos are concerned, as I've done a few. I'm really pleased to hear from Tommo, as we had already discussed his great-uncle a bit, early in the 21/KRRC thread.

Liz

[MBrockway]

Hi Mark

I think when people come on to the forum for the first time it's easy to get confused as to where to put the enquiry.

Yes, that's a great typo, but I daren't throw the first stone where funny typos are concerned, as I've done a few. I'm really pleased to hear from Tommo, as we had already discussed his great-uncle a bit early in the 21/KRRC thread.

Liz

Ditto - I'm looking forward to seeing the photo and fleshing out the man.

[tommo21]

Liz & MBrockway, Apologies for my "thread hi jacking" I am new to this forum and indeed any forum. What / where is the correct place to use? Tommo.