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RIC, Newcastle police, RGA KIA


Hett65
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John English was born around 1886 in Cork, Ireland, his father Thomas English was a segeant with the RIC, mother named Anne.

John joined Newcastle City police in 1906 and resigned to enlist (date not known) with the RGA as Gunner 162548 185th Siege Battery, he died at 49th CCS on 22.8.1918.

Can any member assist with information on his fathers history with the RIC which may give me some further history on John English.Than

Thanks

John

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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Schull/Main_Street/1159667/

Would seem to be the family

The only 2 Thomas English I can see that joined RIC , both joined in 1873. This is one of them, and appears to be the right one

Thomas has died my 1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__5_Urban__part_of_/East_View_Terrace/398115/

And Anne, widowed is living alone

The policy of the RIC was not to let a policeman served in either his own birth county, nor his wife's, hence Thomas serving in Cork

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There's also this man (but it appears he was already enlisted by May 1915) at Tynemouth - presumably RGA or RE

post-51028-0-72074600-1380904681_thumb.p

Craig

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Corisande and Craig

Thanks for the information on the census and the article in the Newcastle Journal.

John

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John, look up the service records for Thomas English at the NA and focus on HO184 series, service numbers 39183 and 39551. If he was Tipperary born he is your man. You will probably find he was stationed at some time in Kerry and then got married and transferred, I guess to Cork. Also out of interest look up the record for Constable Michael English 65724. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was John's brother.

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Not his father but, I guess you have the 1911 census, John English, 27, PC of 5 years, b Cork.

The entry is made by Sgt McDonald of Worswick/ Pilgrim St Police Station.

It looks like he may have lived in the station with lots of other PCs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4078870302/

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Peter

Thanks for assisting, I had the census return, it is a shame his police record is missing from the archives at Newcastle.

Peter Mc

Thanks for that information, I believe his wife was born in Tipperary. I had a feeling his youngest son may have joined the RIC, and I am surprised John English did not join the RIC, it may have been that Newcastle police were paying more money for a constable.

John

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Peter

Yes, I have a photograph of the memorial and with it being made out of 'copper' it was difficult to photograph where it was located in the police station. It is a shame that there were two Newcastle police/firemen (navy men) who were killed in the war but are not recorded on the memorial, and Newcastle fire brigade were not in existance at that time so there is no fire brigade memorial.

John

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  • 5 years later...

I am the great-grandson of John English and am pleased to have found this thread as I was about to start one myself, after coming to a bit of a dead end with my research. I fear I have found out all I can about him from CWGC and the information available on nmarchive.com. I have visited the cemetery at Boves West in France but am now hopeful of some information and ideally some photographs of the 185th Siege Bty. from 1918. Whether from the Somme or prior to that.

 

My great-grandfather died in August of this year, as a previous comment mentions, so something pre- this time would be wonderful.

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12 minutes ago, obutterwick said:

I am the great-grandson of John English and am pleased to have found this thread as I was about to start one myself, after coming to a bit of a dead end with my research. I fear I have found out all I can about him from CWGC and the information available on nmarchive.com. I have visited the cemetery at Boves West in France but am now hopeful of some information and ideally some photographs of the 185th Siege Bty. from 1918. Whether from the Somme or prior to that.

 

My great-grandfather died in August of this year, as a previous comment mentions, so something pre- this time would be wonderful.

The original work on here pre-dated my work on the Soldiers Effects records and the War Gratuity - the War Gratuity was paid for length of service.

 

His War Gratuity of £4 10s(net), using my calculator tells us;

image.png.410d377165175ce910eb6c89c819dc5a.png

https://wargratuity.uk/

 

Craig

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40 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The original work on here pre-dated my work on the Soldiers Effects records and the War Gratuity - the War Gratuity was paid for length of service.

 

His War Gratuity of £4 10s(net), using my calculator tells us;

image.png.410d377165175ce910eb6c89c819dc5a.png

https://wargratuity.uk/

 

Craig

Interesting - thank you!

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On 05/10/2013 at 13:51, Hett65 said:

I had a feeling his youngest son may have joined the RIC,

 

I would doubt that his youngest son could have joined RIC

 

John was born in 1886 and the RIC stopped taking recruits in 1921. Even if he had produced a son in say 1904 aged 18, that son would have been only 17 in 1921

 

I don't think John married in Ireland - I cannot find a likely marriage

 

There is certainly more available today on both the RIC and Irish BMD certs than when this thread started  - you can get his parents marriage cert, his BC and his father's Dc

Edited by corisande
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11 hours ago, obutterwick said:

I am the great-grandson of John English and am pleased to have found this thread as I was about to start one myself, after coming to a bit of a dead end with my research. I fear I have found out all I can about him from CWGC and the information available on nmarchive.com. I have visited the cemetery at Boves West in France but am now hopeful of some information and ideally some photographs of the 185th Siege Bty. from 1918. Whether from the Somme or prior to that.

 

My great-grandfather died in August of this year, as a previous comment mentions, so something pre- this time would be wonderful.

 

His number specifically indicates he was conscripted/mobilised around the 18th May 1917 and reporting to No. 3 Depot, Citadel, Plymouth, a couple of days later to be approved, numbered and equipped. It is possible he actually went out with 442nd Siege Battery. This battery, reportedly personnel only, was broken up on arrival with one section going to 185 Sge. Bty, and one to 124 Sge. Bty. The battery embarked from Folkestone on the 23rd Sept. 1917.  A lot of these batteries had pre-embarkation photos taken so another possible photo may exist before going to overseas with 442 SB.

 

Have you read the Heavy Artillery Group/Brigade diaries that 185 SB were attached to?

 

Kevin

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John English was born about 1886 at Cork, Ireland.  Parents were Thomas & Anne who married on 5th July 1883 at Kerry.  1901 John lived with his parents and brother Michael at 86 Main Street, Schull, Cork.  Father joined RIC 5th March 1873 warrant number 39183 and served at Kerry from 30.3.1873; Cork from 20.11.1883; promoted sergeant 1.9.1895 and retired on pension 1.1.1902.

John was appointed to Newcastle upon Tyne City Police in 1906 as a constable, collar number not recorded.  On 1st July 1914 he married Emma Walker aged 20 years of 11 Fawdon Square, Gosforth at All Saints Parish Church, Gosforth.  Marriage was number 222 of 1914 in Parish of All Saints, Gosforth in County of Northumberland.  English was recorded as a police constable living at Police Station, Newcastle. (does not record which station).  Father recorded as Thomas a police sergeant.  They had a son John Thomas Walker English born 1915.

John resigned from the police (they had to resign to join HMF) on 23rd May 1917 and enlisted with RGA as Gunner 162548.  On 22.8.1918 he died at number 49 CCS from wounds received in action. His name is commemorated on Newcastle upon Tyne City Police war memorial.    His history is recorded in my book 'Blue Line to Trench Line' which I have had recently published and is the history of all police officers from the north east of England who were KIA,or died of wounds or disease during WW1.

John

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3 minutes ago, Hett65 said:

John English was born about 1886 at Cork, Ireland.  Parents were Thomas & Anne who married on 5th July 1883 at Kerry.  1901 John lived with his parents and brother Michael at 86 Main Street, Schull, Cork.  Father joined RIC 5th March 1873 warrant number 39183 and served at Kerry from 30.3.1873; Cork from 20.11.1883; promoted sergeant 1.9.1895 and retired on pension 1.1.1902.

John was appointed to Newcastle upon Tyne City Police in 1906 as a constable, collar number not recorded.  On 1st July 1914 he married Emma Walker aged 20 years of 11 Fawdon Square, Gosforth at All Saints Parish Church, Gosforth.  Marriage was number 222 of 1914 in Parish of All Saints, Gosforth in County of Northumberland.  English was recorded as a police constable living at Police Station, Newcastle. (does not record which station).  Father recorded as Thomas a police sergeant.  They had a son John Thomas Walker English born 1915.

John resigned from the police (they had to resign to join HMF) on 23rd May 1917 and enlisted with RGA as Gunner 162548.  On 22.8.1918 he died at number 49 CCS from wounds received in action. His name is commemorated on Newcastle upon Tyne City Police war memorial.    His history is recorded in my book 'Blue Line to Trench Line' which I have had recently published and is the history of all police officers from the north east of England who were KIA,or died of wounds or disease during WW1.

John

Wonderful, thank you! John English jnr. was my grandfather, who also served as a police officer in both Lancashire and Newcastle upon Tyne.

4 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 

His number specifically indicates he was conscripted/mobilised around the 18th May 1917 and reporting to No. 3 Depot, Citadel, Plymouth, a couple of days later to be approved, numbered and equipped. It is possible he actually went out with 442nd Siege Battery. This battery, reportedly personnel only, was broken up on arrival with one section going to 185 Sge. Bty, and one to 124 Sge. Bty. The battery embarked from Folkestone on the 23rd Sept. 1917.  A lot of these batteries had pre-embarkation photos taken so another possible photo may exist before going to overseas with 442 SB.

 

Have you read the Heavy Artillery Group/Brigade diaries that 185 SB were attached to?

 

Kevin

This is very interesting, Kevin. I wish it was easier to find out specifics, but this is certainly another avenue to pursue. 

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On 05/10/2013 at 00:03, Peterhastie said:

Not his father but, I guess you have the 1911 census, John English, 27, PC of 5 years, b Cork.

The entry is made by Sgt McDonald of Worswick/ Pilgrim St Police Station.

It looks like he may have lived in the station with lots of other PCs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4078870302/

Hi Peter. The above link no longer seems to work. Please could you re-add it? Many thanks.

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Link work OK for me just now

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obutterwick

Do you have any photographs of John English who was KIA in the 1st WW, or your grandfather John who served with Lancashire & Newcastle City police?

John

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23 minutes ago, Hett65 said:

obutterwick

Do you have any photographs of John English who was KIA in the 1st WW, or your grandfather John who served with Lancashire & Newcastle City police?

John

That’s exactly what I’m hoping to find, as we as a family have very little on John English snr. I have plenty of my grandfather and I’m sure I could share them with permission. Why are you looking for them?

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8 hours ago, obutterwick said:

Hi Peter. The above link no longer seems to work. Please could you re-add it? Many thanks.

019413:Police Station Pilgrim Street Newcastle upon Tyne 1930

 

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obutterwick

John English is in my book and I would like to add his photograph to the history I have on him, it is too late for the book but it would be nice to get a photograph of him and his son in uniform.

john

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