Legion of Frontiersmen

[BillyH]

I have been researching a casualty of the Great War who had joined this organisation before the war.

I have tried Google and I get the impression that they are/were seen as anything between good hearted patriots to dubious paramilitaries.

Can anyone enlighten me with their point of view please.

Are they a bit like Freemasons? Indeed do they have any connection with Freemasonry? (my casualty was both).

I am not a member of either organisation so any advice would be much appreciated ! ! !

Feel free to PM me if your views are a bit forthright.

BillyH.

[Ice Tiger]

Hi Billy.

I know nothing about Frontiersmen but I can tell you there is no link between Freemasonary and the Legion of Frontiersmen.

Andy

[Ron Clifton]

Hello BillyH

I think the Legion were a group of big-game hunters, explorers and the like who were prepared to offer their services to the Government in the event of war, so they were effectively paramilitaries. I believe that Lord Kitchener initially rejected their services but their members later constituted the bulk of 25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers, which fought in East Africa.

There was certailnly no official connection to Freemasonry but the type of me who filled their ranks were often the same type of men who were attracted to Freemasonry, and no doubt there was a significant but unofficial overlap in their membership.

Ron

[Khaki]

All I know about Frontiersman, is that they (were) a band of independent military volunteers (self formed)who provided their own mounts uniforms and equipment, with the object of being able to offer their services to the British Government anywhere within the empire. A Victorian concept that modern war left behind although I believe a unit served in German East Africa with considerable losses.

khaki

[Ice Tiger]

.....the type of me who filled their ranks were often the same type of men who were attracted to Freemasonry, and no doubt there was a significant but unofficial overlap in their membership.

Ron

Interesting point of view Ron; expand please.

What "type of men" do you think Great War Freemasons were and what evidence do you base your "significant" overlap of membership claim on.

I would be interested to know.

Andy

[CarylW]

Billy

According to a snippet in a book, in 1904 Roger Pocock wrote to ten newspapers announcing the formation of the Legion of Frontiersmen, so you may find more about it in the Times, if you have access to their digital archive via the library Billy. Or maybe someone could look it up. I used to have access via the National Library of Wales, but can't seem to log in lately.

There's a book about the legion at Amazon for 99 quid!

More about Roger Pocock

http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/outrider.htm

Looked on archive.org for a freebie but nothing came up, although information may be within a book there, but you've probably looked. There are a couple of adventure type books on archive.org actually written by Roger Pocock

Wikipedia link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Frontiersmen

On the Long Long Trail, there is a mention here of the 25th (Service) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers founded by Legion of Frontiersmen

http://www.1914-1918.net/royalfus.htm

[museumtom]

Here are two of my lads;

BAILEY, ALEXANDER. Rank: lance Corporal. Regiment or Service: Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regiment). Unit; No 4 Company.

Date of Death:07/05/1915. Age at Death, 27. Service No:1570. Born in Strangford in 1887, County Down. Enlisted in Ottowa, 21/08/1914.

Height, 5ft 7 inches. Complexion, Fair. Hair, Dark Brown, Eyes, Grey. Next of kin listed as Reverend R. J. Bailey, M. A. , The Manse, Carlow. Occupation on enlistment, Clerk with the Royal Trust Company. Spent two years serving with the Royal North West Mounted Police. Supplementary information; Son of the Rev. Robert Taylor Bailey, M. A. , and Alice Magil, his wife. Ex-member of R. N. W. M. P. and Legion of Frontiersmen. Sub-manager of Royal Trust Company, Winnipeg. Enlisted in 1914.

Carlow Sentinel, May, 1915.

Lance Corporal Alex Bailey.

The recent casualties also include Alexander Bailey, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. He was elder son of the late Rev. R. T. Bailey, M. A, Carlow, and grandson of Rev. George Magill, D. D, senior minister of Cliftonville Presbyterian Chirch, Belfast. When war was proclaimed Mr Bailey was in a responsible and lucrative situation in Winnipeg, Canada. As is well-known a wave of local enthusiasm swept over the Dominion, and Mr Bailey, with many personal friends, volunteered as a private in the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. Though he might have had a commission in another regiment he preferred to serve in the now famous corps. He was sent to the front before Christmas. After being some time in the trenches, enduring the hardships of trench life, he caught enteric, and was sent to hospital. On recovery he was granted a short leave to see his friends in Ireland. He left his grandfather’s house about four weeks ago, and returned to duty full of health and hope.

News just arrived that he was killed last week by a shell. Mr bailey was a young man of great promise, who has left no enemies or bitter memories behind him. To Dr Magil—the highly-respected “father” of the Presbytery of Belfast—and the other relatives deep sympathy will be extended in their bereavement.

Grave or Memorial Reference: Panel 10. Memorial; Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial in Belgium.

CARSON, GEORGE ALFRED. Rank: Sergeant. Regiment or Service: Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (Eastern Ontario Regiment). Unit; 2nd Company.

Date of Death:18/05/1915. Age at Death, 30. Service No:811. Supplementary information; Son of Edward and Annie Carson, of 74, Sandy Lane, Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester, England. Born, Manchester, England. Occupation on enlistment, Letter Carrier for the G. P. O. Canada. Previous military experience; Private, 16th Queen’s Lancers. Age on enlistment; 29 years - months. Apprenticiship?; Date of birth; 13/03/1885. Next of kin details; (wife) Frances Emily Carson, Regina College, Sask. Place and date of enlistment, 27/08/1914, Ottowa. Weight, lbs. Height, 5 feet, 7 ½ inches. Complexion, fair. Eyes, brown. Hair, brown.

De Ruvigny’s Roll of Honour; -

Carson, George Alfred, Sergeant, No 811, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. Youngest son of the late Edward Carson, of Manchester, Draper, by his wife, Annie (74, Sandy Lane, Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester). Daughter of Thomas Wallworth, of Manchester. Born Bradford, 13 March-1885. Educated Manchester Higher Grades School, and the Science and Art School. Enlisted in the 16th (Queen’s) Lancers in 1902, and served two years in South Africa. Obtained his discharge by purchase on the death of his father in 1905. Went to Canada in 1909 to take up farming, but afterwards went into the Post Office in Regina. Volunteered for Imperial service on the outbreak of war and joined the Regina Legion of Frontiersmen, 09/08/1914, subsequently transferring to Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry; came over in October, 1914, went to France in December. Was in action on the 25th, and was promoted Sergeant on the field; was wounded by a stray shell while going to Headquarters at Ypres, Boulogne, on the 18th. Buried in the Military Cemetery at Boulogne. He greatly distinguished himself after the repulse of the German attack on 8-May by bringing in the wounded, and a comrade wrote; “He returned (from support trenches to the open) and carried a wounded man back to our trenches. To do this he had to cross an open space 300ft wide swept by shrapnel and machine guns, he returned four times and brought back a wounded man each time—how he escaped unhurt I cannot imagine. Our company sergeant, shook him by the hand and said ‘You are the bravest man I ever met. ’” Captain Adamson also wrote speaking highly of his conduct, and added “ No braver man ever gave his life for his country. ” He married at Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada, 22 August-1914, Frances Emily, youngest daughter of Thomas (and Marcell) Bolton, of Carlow.

(I include this man as his wife was born in Carlow and is listed in the 1901 census in Ballinnabranagh, Clongrennane, Author).

Grave or Memorial Reference: VIII. D. 19. Cemetery: Boulogne Eastern Cemetery in France.

[Greg]

Have a look on the forum for threads on the Legion. We have (had?) a member who is a member of the Legion. It still exists and has divisions in Britain Australia and Canada.

Greg

[BillyH]

Thanks to everyone for the help.

BillyH.

[Guest]

Presumably if there was a strong connection between the Freemason's and the Frontiersmen the battalion that they formed would have had its own lodge? Is there any evidence if this?..... King Edward's Horse (Overseas Dominions Regiment) had a strong link with the Freemason's and had its own lodge. MG

Edit there seems to be a particularly strong link between the Frontiersmen and Canada.

[MBrockway]

Is there any connection with the British Empire League, who sponsored two battalions of the KRRC? As yet I've been able to find very little background on the BEL.

Cheers,

Mark

[Guest exuser1]

I went through a phase of collecting to The Old And The Bold , many had pre war service in the Boer War ,odd ball units with some superb names , one point was that the are assumed to be the only unit in the Great War to be recuited and sent over seas without any formal training ? this being due to their pre war service and experinces in the four courners of the world , many sufferd in Africa from disease and basically being a bit to old for campainging , i was hooked by the idea of collecting to a bunch of ex cowboys ,circus performers , big game hunters and such like , managed to pick up the odd trio and even a couple of Boer War groups to the like of Driscolls Scouts and 1915 trios .

Intresting the unit is shown in the television series Young Indina Jones

[Ice Tiger]

Presumably if there was a strong connection between the Freemason's and the Frontiersmen the battalion that they formed would have had its own lodge? Is there any evidence if this?........

Martin

During my many hours researching military lodges & Freemasonry during the Great War I have yet to find evidence of a warrant being granted by United Grand Lodge of England to a batallion of Frontiersmen. Obviously no evidence of it happening is not evidence of it not happening & there is always the possibility of an overseas Grand Lodges (such as Grand Lodge of Canada) granting a warrant to Frontiersmen but again I have yet to find evidence of it. This is why I asked Ron where he was getting his evidence for his claim of a "significant but unofficial overlap of membership" between Freemasons & Frontiersmen.

Andy

[Guest]

Martin

During my many hours researching military lodges & Freemasonry during the Great War I have yet to find evidence of a warrant being granted by United Grand Lodge of England to a batallion of Frontiersmen. Obviously no evidence of it happening is not evidence of it not happening & there is always the possibility of an overseas Grand Lodges (such as Grand Lodge of Canada) granting a warrant to Frontiersmen but again I have yet to find evidence of it. This is why I asked Ron where he was getting his evidence for his claim of a "significant but unofficial overlap of membership" between Freemasons & Frontiersmen.

Andy

Thanks Andy. Interesting to see there is no recorded Lodge. Maybe the Canadian link is merely coincidental with Freemasonry rather than causal. It just struck me that a regiment with a high proportion of mounted Canadians (the King Edward's Horse) and its own Lodge might indicate a high concentration of masons in the Canadian mounted forces and by extension might suggest a possible link with the Frontiersmen given their later association with mounted Canadians. I would be amazed if there were no King Edward's Horse who hadn't at one time been a Frontiersman - I think both bodies were formed within a few years of each other. Of course that does not prove anything and it may all be coincidence.

My understanding is that the masons tended to be like-minded, bound by common values and from what I have read the Frontiersmen's history is quite the opposite: a fairly continuous series of disagreements and splintering which itself might suggest factions within factions and a distinct lack of unity. The Frontiersmen seem to have been a rather forlorn group.

Thanks for your clarification. It is an area of passing interest to me as the King's Colonials were once part of the London Yeomanry before being transferred to the Special Reserve. Interestingly I have read that they tried to strongly disassociate themselves from the 2nd King Edward's Horse which suggests to me at least that they were a pretty tight group. I don't recall the reference. MG.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Andy and Martin

Perhaps I should have given more weight to my use of the word "unofficial" than I seem to have given to the word "strong". I did not, and do not, mean to suggest that Freemasons, as such, were influential in the formation or operation of the Legion. My opinions are based on the concepts of service, particularly in the Empire, and a degree of self-reliance and slef-improvement which both organisations shared, and the fact that men, especially younger men, sent abroad on either public or commercial business would know that there would often be a local Lodge which they could join, and thereby acquire a number of social contacts which would help them to settle in to their new postings. A local church wouldof course provide similar opportunities.

I too have been unable to trace any Lodge conneted to the Legion by the Grand Lodges of either England or Scotland but, as Andy will know, a number of army units had, and still have, Lodges associated with them. and the GL of Ireland was also a significant player in the area of military Lodges.

We are getting away a bit from Great War-related discussion here and I suspect the Mods may consider intervening. However, if either of you would like to continue the discussion by PM, I would be glad to do so.

[BelgianExile]

There's a fair bit on their history here.

[SteveE]

I'm coming to this thread a bit late in the day but, as far as I know, there was/is no direct or official link between the Legion of Frontiersmen and any Freemason Lodges. I suspect that the gentleman (Francis Schenkel?) referred to in the OP, like other similarly minded individuals, was drawn to both organisations for the reasons Ron has already stated in post #15.

However, if by Freemasonry one means a fraternal organisation or brotherhood then one could argue that there is a link, the Legion of Frontiersmen was such a brotherhood at the start, a worldwide body of men with a common purpose, "A body of men who are ready to serve the Flag and the Empire wherever needed, without any urging—the need of the Empire being the call that brings the true man of the frontier to the help of the great Mother in her time of need'" - Hawera & Normanby Star, 25 Oct. 1924

I guess it was this feeling of 'brotherhood', lost by Roger Pocock after he had left the Canadian Mounted Police, that led him to form the Legion of Frontiersmen. Another newspaper report stated that "It is the custom of frontiersmen to provide their own tools and be indebted to no one, and the man who wants to know what he " will get out of it " either doesn't understand the A.B.C. of the Legion, or else he is not a frontiersman. The Legion, after all, is simply the consolidation of the freemasonry of the frontier. The freemasonry is there, all the time, and many years before the Legion was thought of the need of an organisation of the vast world wide brotherhood was recognised. In other words, the Legion is a military Masonic Lodge, open only to men who come together in the comradeship of those who have shared common dangers in the wild places of the earth." - New Zealand Herald, 26 Mar. 1914.

Membership of the Legion of Frontiersmen, certainly when it was formed and upto the beginning of the war, was open only to those with colonial experience, had served at sea or who had seen active service with the regular army. It discounted militia, volunteer and, later on, Territorial service although I believe by the time the War Office sanctioned the formation of the 25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers this had been 'relaxed'.

Regards

Steve

p.s. As per the OP I too "am not a member of either organisation"

[David Filsell]

I seem to recall an earlier thread on this subject - might be worth a search.

[Moonraker]

A search suggests two pages of threads, mostly relatively inconsequential.

This

appears to be the most substantial.

Moonraker