Duke of York's Royal Military School

[robigunner88]

Morning all,

As many of you have probably noticed when when looking through the service records of soldiers who fought in the Great War; there is a section asking whether the recruit has schooled at the Duke of York's Royal Military School or the Royal Hibernian Military School based in Dublin (later to merge with DOYRMS in the 1920's). At the outbreak of the war the Duke of York's was located on top of the White Cliffs in Dover ( and still is), but its pupils relocated elsewhere (Essex I believe) so that troops travelling to France could be stationed in the schools boarding houses before departing.

Now getting to my question. The school trained its pupils in skill at arms ect, and I suspect many were trained to quite a high level. Furthermore, many of the school teachers came from the military and the school even had an RSM (and still does). Now I recall one of my history teachers (this was many many years ago) stating that pupils were used as instructors for training the new recruits, but has any forum members come across any memoirs or documents that supports the possibility of recruits being trained by pupils associated by either school who were still illegible from joining up due to their age?

Finally, returning back to the service records. Why do they ask the recruit if they attended either school?

Jamie

[GeofftheDukie]

Good morning

Saw your post on the site. I attended the school 1958 to 1965 and I will try to answer your question Why do they ask the recruit if they attended either school?

The school was founded in 1803 for the children of soldiers. It soon became a boys only school then recently reverted back to a mixed school. It now allows all service personnel to send their children to the school. See more details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_York's_Royal_Military_School

At the time of the great war the school was seen as source of recruitment for the Army. In fact about 238 pupils from the school died in WW1, many with awards for gallantry. there is one VC from the DYRMS and one from the Royal Hibernian School which merged with the DYRMS after Ireland gained its independence.

The staff at the school were ex military. In my day about 80% of the teachers were from the Education Corps. We had an RSM, a CSM, a band instructor and a corps of drums instructor. We wore battledress and marched everywhere. Boys were trained not only in academic subjects but also in military crafts - shooting, map reading, delivering lectures, planning exercises etc.

The school became the model for military education throughout the armed forces and the headmaster - until recently - was always a Lt Colonel or above from the RAEC. The staff saw teaching at the school as a big plus on their CVs.

Many of the boys who left school either at 15 or so went into the army apprentice schools or the junior leader establishments that the Army ran. Others went on to A levels and pursued careers via Sandhurst or Mons.

So in discovering that a boy had been to either school the army knew they were getting a competent trainer, nco or future leader. Hope that helps.

Geoff

[Scalyback]

Geoff,

Very intresting. How long from starting at the school did you become a trained man? I assume starting so early and only being of use to the War Office in your mid teens? I used a scheme where as a senior cadet I managed to skip basic training for TA, would the ticking of the box on the form be similiar I wonder for those wishing to go to the front.

[GeofftheDukie]

I went to school at the age of 11 ½ although there was an earlier entrance for those who were 9 or 10. We were automatically enrolled in the CCF, kitted out with 2 battledress uniforms and a set of no 1s "blues", and started drill lessons etc from term one. By the time we had reached 15 or so we were proficient at drill, map reading and shooting plus cleaning shoes, blancoing webbing and ironing kit. It was at about this age that many went on to join the apprentice schools or junior leader Regiments, or just leave school and sign on with one of the services.

The military training also took us to various rifle ranges where we used .303 lee enfield rifles and bren guns. We were taught to clean and strip them as well as shoot. In addition we used .22 rifles on our own school range. I took various tests like map reading, marksman proficiency tests and wireless operating at about aged 15/16. Some test like marksman, were repeated annually.

Boys were promoted up through the ranks, L/cpl,Cpl. Sgt CSM etc. The highest rank being an under officer. These were all 17/18 year olds i.e. just before leaving school.

Like you I went into the TA and managed to skip some of the training. I do know that the Dukies were well thought of in their Regiments. The School lost over 230 in WW1 and one was awarded a VC. I suppose given our schooling we did have a head start on some poor 18 year old who joined up in a moment of patriotic fervour.

Geoff

[robigunner88]

Thank you for your reply Geoff.

The amount of military training the school offered during your time at the school I expect was slightly less than what the pre-war Dukies undertook but considerably more than what I received whilst at the school between 2001- 2007 (Haig and Roberts). During my time there, one class a week was dedicated to military lessons in junior school. This was spent learning how to fire and assemble the No. 8 rifle. These lessons stopped once reaching senior school and instead Friday afternoons were dedicated to CCF. We still did plenty of drill on Tuesday and Thursday evenings as well as Parade on Sunday's in our Blues.

It certainly makes sense thinking about the amount of military training Dukies would have received at the school prior to and during the First World War and how this would had been beneficial to the Army as well as for themselves. It would be interesting to see how many Old Boys became Officers during the First World War, as I get the impression that most would have ended up in the ranks prior to the outbreak of the war mainly due to its pupils arriving from the lower classes. However, as the war progressed and the British Army was sustaining losses amongst its Officers, the skills already acquired in leadership ect at the school, surely would have been valuable to the British Army?

Do you know whether military training at the school prior to the First World War would have been more infantry based, or were skills of other arms taught?

My History teacher who took us for the First World War module was also the curator of the school museum at the time, suggested that it was more than likely that the school lost many more Old Boys than currently listed on the walls of the school chapel.

Jamie

[Scalyback]

You say lower classes, I infer you mean sons of the ranks rather than the officers who would send to public school?

Intresting the CCF is mentioned, was it CCF at the time of the great war? As the charter for the CCF is diffrent to the ACF. The CCF is to produce leaders for the armed forces, the ACF is to prepare young people for life in the forces. So given the sons of other ranks sent to public school what did they want in the 1900 to 1918 period I wonder. Young leaders(similar to junior leaders of past) trained rankers or easier to train rankers or a source of potential officers?

[Sepoy]

There appears to be a practice trench system located just to the north of the Duke of York School. It can only be seen on Google Earth using the historic imagery for 2007.

As it is so close to the School was this used for their Cadets or was it used by Troops being trained locally.

The second photo shows location of the trench system and other interesting crop marks in relation to the school.

Sepoy

[robigunner88]

You say lower classes, I infer you mean sons of the ranks rather than the officers who would send to public school?

Yes, by lower classes I did mean sons of other ranks.

I found an article earlier about a pupil who left the school at the age of 14 in 1910 in order to join the Boys Battery of the Royal Horse Artillery. According to the article he left the school with an Army Second Class Certificate of education. From reading elsewhere on another forum, a Second Class Certificate of education was to be obtained if a soldier wished to progress to the rank of sergeant. So from a young age he would already have a significant head start over others enlisting into the ranks!

Jamie

[edwin astill]

Might be worth noting that Alexander Johnston (Worcestershire Regiment) - who was wounded as a Brigadier General in WW1 - went into army education and was for a time in the '20's Commandant at the School. I edited his diaries (Pen & Sword). Shortly afterward his time my father and uncle attended, and my father recalled trooping the school's colours. I wonder if they still do that.

Edwin

[robigunner88]

As it is so close to the School was this used for their Cadets or was it used by Troops being trained locally.

Connaught Barracks is only half a mile from the school, so it is quite possible that troops stationed there during the war used those fields as a training area. Furthermore, as the school was evacuated during the war and the school grounds used for accommodating troops heading across the channel, it may well have been a small training area for them. The school perimeter is no more than 200 metres from those trench positions.

Jamie

[Scalyback]

Yes the 2nd class and indeed 1st class certificate in education is needed and a great boost to the soldier wishing to advance.

So a school to produce the backbone of the army!

[Phil Eyden]

This is really interesting to me as I live very close to those trenches and had no idea they were there - so thank you Sepoy.

The Duke of Yorks School was occupied by the 5th Bn The Royal Fusiliers throughout the entire course of the war and the 6th Bn The Royal Fusiliers had the nearby Connaught Barracks from the outbreak to September 1917. Either, or both, could have been responsible for those training trenches. Both were reserve training battalions supplying the regular battalions with endless supplies of men, so to see practice trenches in this location makes perfect sense.

[Phil996]

I showed this thread to a friend who attended the school during the 1960s. He has said, 'I remember those trenches and used them for my proficiency training which largely consisted of calculating intervisible points for bren gun emplacements, having a crafty fag and heating compo ration baked beans in a mess tin. Essential skills upon which I have drawn daily since the 1960s. Some twerp found two corroded live mills hand grenades in the soil and put them in his locker in the middle of our 20 bed dormitory. Matron Fanny Gray found them and had the good sense to alert the housemaster - the house was evacuated for bomb disposal from Connaught Barracks to sort them out.'

It's incredible that the trenches are still visible - though if they were still in existence in the 1960s that would explain why, I suppose.

Phil

[GeofftheDukie]

Much of the surrounding area to the School was in the hands of the militrary for many years. So there would be many such areas for training. The School used to use the rifle ranges nearby and I am sure the old trenches were used but I cannot recall it. We were ofetn warned about old munitions and I can recall vaguely the hand grenade in the locker incident.

Earlier on Edwin asked about the School colours. The School is one of three allowed to carry colours. (Eton and Cheltenham College being the other two.) There is a School colour and a Queen's colour. Both are paraded at an annual trooping the colour ceremony at the end of the Summer term.

Old Colours are laid up and hang in the School chapel.

The School also boasts a military band. Often playing at events like the Royal Tournament and international rugby matches. The last being England v Argentina in 2013. In March 2014 the School will be parading at Ypres to commemorate the Dukies who have no graves but are remembered at the Menin and Thiepval monuments. The band and Colours will be on parade then.

In the late 50/60s I recall that those who did not go on to O levels did the Army Certificate - if they indicated a wish to go on to join the army. It was another way of preparing the boys for service life.

Geoff

[scotchegg75]

All very close to the WW1 field redoubt