Imperial Camel Corps Questions.

[Guest]

Hello - I wonder if there is anyone out there who is an expert on the ICC. I would like to make contact by PM with someone who has detailed knowledge - is anyone out there?

I have already done some research but I have one initial questions - according to the Marquess of Anglesey's "History of the British Cavalry Vol 5: 1914-1919 Egypt, Palestine and Syria" he mentions that one of the four ICC Battalions, one was made up of men drawn exclusively from the Australian Light Horse. Can anyone tell me which battalion this was - I assume the 1st Bn ICC but it might be the 3rd Bn....and which ALH Regiments they were drawn from - all of them or just some of the?...., were they volunteers and would ALH Gallipoli veterans have possibly served in the ICC?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards

MG

[frev]

Martin - no doubt he'll see this post eventually - but if not you could PM Steve Becker - he is our ALH & ICC guru!! Cheers, Frev

[kenf48]

Not an expert but interested in the Middle East campaigns according to the AWM the first four companies were recruited from infantry battalions recuperating after Gallipoli,

http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_13624.asp

subsequent recruits came from reinforcements intended for the ALH. You can also access the war diaries (not all Companies) at the AWM http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm4/class.asp?levelID=79

A full list of companies and their evolution to the ICCB and disbandment is on this site

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww1/lt-horse/camel_regiments.htm

love the poem!

Ken

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The 1st Camel Bn was formed around Sept 1916 amd was drawn from the availible Camel Companies then in Sinai, so they included Briotsh and Aussie and later a NZ company.

WHen the the Camel Bde was formed in Dec 1916 there was a a reorg after Madghaba ilate in 1916 and early 1917 into national Bn bases.

With the 1st Camel Bn was all aussie (drawn from the the first four camel companies formed from aussie Infantry Bns.

the 2nd Camel Bn was formed from Briitish Yeomanry Regts with a company from British Infantry (at first two companies were formed but one was found to be unsuitible and disbanded and reformed from Yeomanry.

The 3rd Camel Bn was formed from aussie LH and yes many saw service on Anzac (Gallipoli.)

The 4th Camel Bn was form around Feb 1917 from aussie LH and NZ MR's

Basicly

1Co to 4Co's ICC - aussie Infantry

5Co and 7Co - Britsh Infatry (53 and 54th Div's) the 7Co was disbanded

6Co to 10Co - British yeomanry included the reformed 7Co.

11Co to 14Co and 17Co and 18Co - aussie LH

15Co and 16Co - NZMR.

The first four companies were formed from Gallipoli Infantry veterns plus Infantry reinformcements

As the LH companies again the mixed nature was in force.but mostly LH reinforcments.

the same could be said for the NZ companies.

The British Infantry and yeomanry also fell into this same mix.

IS that what your after?

Cheers

S.B

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Having reread your question you are after what LH regts formed what aussie Camel Companies?

Basicly the 11Co to 14Co's were drawn from the the three LH Bdes then in Egypt (the 4th LH Bde was disbanded in Aug 1915)

There appear to be some mixing of LH Regts into the Camel corps with men being placed in any Camel Company, so men from the 1st LH could end up in any of the first four LH Camel companies formed. (11Co to 14Co's)

In Feb 1917 the 17Co and 18Co's were formed from LH Regts of the newly formed 4th LH Bde (4th LH, 11th and 12th LHR's)

MY lists placed LH soldiers in any of the first four Camel Companies with no particular order was per the first four aussie Infantry formed companies, or in fact the British yeomanry camel companies which were formed from a particular Yeomanry Regts from a Yeoamry Bde.

Why they didn't place men from a particular LH Bde into a particular Camel company is unknown, as they did it for all the other national companies, but for the NZMR which were also drawn from all three Mounted Rifle Regts.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest]

Steve - many thanks for your response. It has answered most of my initial questions.... I have tried to PM you but the system is telling me you can't receive messages? Is your inbox full?. Need to have an off line chat..... MG

PS I have emailed you using the email on your profile. MG

[Guest]

Not an expert but interested in the Middle East campaigns according to the AWM the first four companies were recruited from infantry battalions recuperating after Gallipoli,

http://www.awm.gov.au/units/unit_13624.asp

subsequent recruits came from reinforcements intended for the ALH. You can also access the war diaries (not all Companies) at the AWM http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm4/class.asp?levelID=79

A full list of companies and their evolution to the ICCB and disbandment is on this site

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww1/lt-horse/camel_regiments.htm

love the poem!

Ken

Thanks Ken. Some very useful MG

[stevenbecker]

Martin,

No worries EMailed you.

In fact my GF served with the 10th LHR and the Camel Corps during the war and falls into the paramiters you mention, strange world.

S.B

[Guest]

Martin,

No worries EMailed you.

In fact my GF served with the 10th LHR and the Camel Corps during the war and falls into the paramiters you mention, strange world.

S.B

Thanks Steve....I am trying to read everything I can on this subject. A fascinating Corps. You will be aware of the well known photo of an Australian, NeW Zealanders, Briton and Indian on camels..... did the Indians serve with the ICC or were they in their own Corps? I am aware of the Bikaner Camel Corps but were other Indians formed into a separate camel unit and incorporated into the ICC. I am also slightly confused between the ICC and the ICC Brigade. are they the same thing?

I recall seeing an old post of yours saying you were writing a book. Has this been done or is it in progress. I would be very interested in reading it.

Regards

MG

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The Indian part of the Camel Corps was the HKSMB (Hong Kong and Singapore Mountion Battery) , The Birkir Camel Corps was not part of the Imperial Camel Corps and operated inderpendently.

the ICC was the Corps itself in which the Camel Bde formed part of that Corps. (Corps was a name use to describe the Camel mounted troops in Egypt) much like the Infantry Corps or such in the British Army.)

The Camel Bde operated with three of the four Camel Bn's formed during the war, with one Bn remained on the Suez and two seperate companies which stayed and fought in the western desert around Sollum.

Sorry but the book was put on hold some time ago as my reaseach took me else where and other subjest put it on the back burner.

The Camel Corps in Egypt come in a number of parts of only the Imperial Camel Corps were thefighting troops, others not part of the ICC was the CTC and the ECTC (Camel Transport Corps British and Egyptian)

Mate I tried your new EMail address hope it finds you?

Cheers

S.B

[Guest]

Mate,

The Indian part of the Camel Corps was the HKSMB (Hong Kong and Singapore Mountion Battery) , The Birkir Camel Corps was not part of the Imperial Camel Corps and operated inderpendently.

the ICC was the Corps itself in which the Camel Bde formed part of that Corps. (Corps was a name use to describe the Camel mounted troops in Egypt) much like the Infantry Corps or such in the British Army.)

The Camel Bde operated with three of the four Camel Bn's formed during the war, with one Bn remained on the Suez and two seperate companies which stayed and fought in the western desert around Sollum.

Sorry but the book was put on hold some time ago as my reaseach took me else where and other subjest put it on the back burner.

The Camel Corps in Egypt come in a number of parts of only the Imperial Camel Corps were thefighting troops, others not part of the ICC was the CTC and the ECTC (Camel Transport Corps British and Egyptian)

Mate I tried your new EMail address hope it finds you?

Cheers

S.B

Thanks Steve. That makes it a lot clearer...... got your email. Thanks for that too. MG

[kenf48]

Interesting article on the organisation (and much more besides) of the ICC and ICCB on the New Zealand History Online site

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/camel-corps/organisation

Among the many treasures is a link to 'With the Cameliers in Palestine' Sergeant John Robertson 1938

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/name-407972.html

Ken

[ssscooter]

Hi all.. I am hoping to find any information on some Irish brothers of the Camel Corps. I have a studio photo of the three with the triangle patch, safari helmets & a leather bandolier bag sling across their shoulders. Each on them have 3 chevrons pointing down. One of the guys is in another photo on a camel with his rifle and the same guy is photographed after the War from a Cork studio.

The brothers (or relations) at connected to Tim Healy the first Governor General of Ireland. His brother Thomas Joseph Healy family line sent me the photo's but not enough males in their line. So if anyone knows anything of Irish Cameliers would love to hear from you..

Cheers Scoots

Can I post photos here...

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

As far as I can see no Irish Regts were drawn from to form any British ICC Companies.

That does'nt mean Irish born soldiers didn't serve in the ICC, only no Irish Regt was used.

Only with out NOK details on these men (in the British ICC units) we may never know?

I do show posibly one Irish born soldier,

Wilson James 1167 A/Sgt 7Co Ex Lanark Yeo NKG listed on the Jerusalem War Memorial KIA 9-1-17 Belfast Ireland

Aussie units had many Irish born soldiers in them

These include;

MORRISSEY John James 162 Dvr Bridge Builder age 32 Adelaide SA and Grange Dinigarvan Ireland Enl 14-9-14 Emb ASqn/9 LHR. Remained in Egypt. Att BSqn/Comp LHR 20-10-15 rtn 9 LHR 3-3-16 att 27Co AASC 29-3-16 rtn 9 LHR 9-4-16 to 3 LHTR 17-4-16 to (3 double sqn) 6-7-16 to 4 Cml Regt 2-11-16 to 4Bn HQ 7-2-17 to 3Bn 14Co 5-3-17 to 4 LHFA 2-5-17 to 14 AGH 9-6-18 to UK leave 1-5-19 RTA 9-7-19 "Prinz Ludwig"

RYAN John Andrew Joseph Patrick 266 CQMS Stockman age 29 St Kilda Vic and law student of Cork Ireland born Kanturk Ireland 8-3-1885 (British Scots Guards deserted) Enl 2-9-14 Emb L/Cpl BCo/9Bn. To Cpl 15-10-14 to L/Sgt 1-1-15 to Sgt 23-2-15 WIA 25-4-15 at Landing (GSW R/arm) rtn 17-6-15 to CQMS 18-7-15 Gallipoli. 1Bn 3Co 29-1-16 prom 2/Lt 1-7-16 to 1Bn HQ 15-9-16 rtn 3Co 9-12-16 prom Lt 7-1-17 to 23rd Lewis MG Cse 20-2-17 WIA 19-4-17 at 2nd Gaza (GSW L/arm) rtn 5-9-17 to 1Bn 2Co 15-2-18 Awarded MC "For T/command of his company leading the assult on the 30-3-18 at Amman" WIA 11-4-18 at Musallabeh (GSW head & shell shock) rtn 14-5-18 to 15 LHR 1-7-18 emb to rtn 9Bn 28-7-18 to 1 Trg Bn UK 28-1-19 married in UK 7-7-19 RTA 30-10-19 "Wahche" served as Frederick Matthews

LYDON William 399 Pte Labourer age 25 Melbourne Vic and Galway Ireland Enl 17-2-15 Emb BCo/23Bn. To Gallipoli 30-8-15. 1Bn 4Co 30-1-16 to hosp 29-10-16 (septic sores) rtn 8-3-17 to hosp 18-3-17 (VD) rtn 23-9-17 to Res Co 2-1-18 to LH Dtls 1-7-18 to BSqn/8 LHR 4-9-18 to UK leave 10-6-19 RTA 6-9-19 "Euripides"

MURPHY John Patrick 432 Pte Seaman age 43 Melbourne Vic and Waterford Ireland (10 years Royal Naval Reserve) Enl 25-1-15 Emb BCo/21Bn. To Gallipoli 29-8-15. 1Bn 4Co 1-2-16 to hosp 6-9-16 (debility) RTA 23-9-16 "Kanowna" med unfit disch 5-12-16

EGAN Ernest Arthur 931 Pte Printer age 23 Kensington Vic and Dublin Ireland Enl 17-8-14 Emb HCo/6Bn. DCo WIA 8-5-15 (GSW head) evac to Malta 17-5-15 evac to UK 28-8-15 Gallipoli. Rtn AProvC Cairo 3-4-16 to CTU 3-3-17 to 3Bn 12Co 24-4-17 to L/Cpl 5-10-17 to T/Cpl 24-11-17 to Sgt 11-2-18 to 15 LHR 1-7-18 to UK leave 17-1-19 disch in UK 19-7-19 ReEnl Royal Irish Constabulary brothers Claude 19Bn KIA and Alfred RIR British Army KIA father John RIC

BURNSIDE James 1234 Pte Timber cutter age 29 Toowoomba Qld and Antrim Ireland Enl 31-8-15 Emb 6R/11 LHR. ToS 2 LHR 1-16 rtn 11 LHR 22-2-16 to 3 LHTR 4-4-16 to 3Bn 13Co 9-9-16 to L/Cpl 15-11-16 to 4Bn 30-12-17 WIA 28-3-18 Amman (GSW L/thigh) to Res Co 29-5-18 rtn 11 LHR 29-7-18 to hosp 10-10-18 (malaria) RTA 26-12-18 "Somali" med unfit

O'BRIEN Patrick 1258 Pte Tinsmith age 20 Sydney NSW and New Ross Wexford Ireland Enl 30-4-15 Emb 9R/7 LHR. ToS 28-12-15 to 2 LHTR 1-3-16 rtn 7 LHR 30-4-16 to hosp 3-8-16 (appendix) to CTU 16-11-16 rtn 2 LHTR 8-1-17 to Sig Trg depot 24-2-17 to Dvr 1 LH Sig Sqn 3-4-17 to Pack Wrles sect 2 LH Sig Sqn 9-7-18 rtn 1 LH Sig Sqn 21-9-18 RTA 3-7-19 "Malta"

CONDON John Campbell 1379 Pte Labourer age 31 Lithgow NSW and Youghal Cork Ireland Enl 28-8-15 Emb 7R/12 LHR. Dtls camp 29-2-16 to 2 LHTR 6-4-16 to 3Bn 12Co 15-7-16 to T/L/Cpl 22-9-16 WIA 19-4-17 at 2nd Gaza (GSW L/thigh) rtn 14-5-17 to FGCM 11-7-17 "violence to an officer" sentenced 2 years HL sentence suspended 11-4-18 to Res Co 3-5-18 to 15 LHR 1-7-18 RTA 26-7-19 "Dongola" brother Francis 9Bn

HOWE James 1391 Pte Horsedriver age 24 Leichhardt NSW Enl 9-8-15 Emb 11R/6 LHR. Tos 6 LHR Dtls 27-12-15 to 2 LHTR 1-3-16 to (2 double sqn) 6-7-16 to 4 Cml Regt 2-11-16 to 4Bn 17Co 7-2-17 to hosp 31-12-17 (hammer toe) rtn 18-4-18 to 14 LHR 19-7-18 to 5 LH Bde HQ 13-10-18 rtn 25-1-19 to UK leave 23-7-19 married Elizabeth Bleakley in Knockbreda Ireland 18-9-19 RTA 18-12-19 "Konigan Luise"

HUNTER Albert Victor 1677 Pte Clerk age 21 Tamworth NSW and Belfast Ireland Enl 27-6-16 Emb 6R/ICC. Dtls camp 19-1-17 to 2 LHTR 16-2-17 to 4 LH Bde HQ 26-2-17 to ASqn/12 LHR 3-4-17 to AMD HQ 8-2-18 rtn 23-2-18 UK leave 1-5-19 disch UK 24-7-19. True age on enlistment was 17 years old Later WWII (NX50635) Pte Reinf Depot Inf Enl 24-6-40 disch 24-9-40

McKELVEY William Ross 1692 Pte Labourer age 26 Moree NSW and Belfast Ireland Enl 16-5-16 Emb 6R/ICC. CTU 20-2-17 to 1Bn 2Co 8-3-17 to hosp 27-3-17 (53 Welsh FA to 31 GH to 24 SH to 14 AGH) (dysentry) (class TB) rtn 17-7-17 to hosp 7-3-18 (injury R/arm) rtn 14-5-18 to BSqn/14 LHR 1-7-18 to UK leave 12-4-19 ToS Ord Rm AHQ London 23-5-19 RTA 22-11-19 "Aeneas"

CURTIN Edward 1696 Pte Labourer age 35 Perth WA and Clonmel Ireland (12 years British 18th Royal Irish Regt) Enl 7-7-15 Emb 2R/28Bn. ToS 12-10-15 evac 5-12-15 (influenza) Gallipoli. Rtn 19-1-16 to 1Bn 3Co 1-2-16 to 3Bn 12Co 4-11-16 to hosp 18-11-16 (VD) rtn 3Co 18-5-17 to Res Co 23-8-17 rtn 12Co 6-4-18 to LH Dtls 1-7-18 RTA 26-12-18 "Somali" SNLR

NEVILLE Alexander Percy St John 1696 A/Sgt (Boer War 74Co 8Bn Dublin Imperial Yeomanry (25195) 2 years and Cape Mounted Rifles 4 years) Motor Mechanic age 35 Burnie Tas and Dublin Ireland Enl 24-7-16 Emb 6R/ICC. Dtls camp 19-1-17 to CTU 20-2-17 to 1Bn 2Co 8-3-17 to hosp 22-8-17 (rheumatism) RTA 11-11-17 "Wiltshire" med unfit disch 23-2-18

DOWLING Richard 1704 Pte (Boer War Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry (699) AKA Richard Joseph Dowling) Miner age 43 Kalgoolie WA and Wexford Ireland Enl 12-7-15 Emb 11R/10 LHR. 3 LHTR 6-3-16 to 3Bn 13Co 8-7-16 to hosp 19-11-17 (debility) to class B 2 14-2-18 to 4Bn 30-12-17 to class C 8-4-18 RTA 12-7-18 "Port Darwin" med unfit disch 3-9-18 arthritis

SHANNON George Alexander 1735 A/Sgt Teacher age 23 Armidale NSW and Alfield Cork Ireland Enl 23-5-16 Emb 6R/ICC. Dtls camp 19-1-17 to 2 LHTR 16-2-17 to 4 LHTR 24-2-17 to BSqn/12 LHR 15-3-17 to T/Cpl 20-2-18 to ADS 12-2-19 to hosp 1-3-19 (heat stroke) att Olden's Force 23-3-19 rtn 29-3-19 to UK leave 12-4-19 RTA 9-7-19 "Prinz Ludwig"

MORONEY Martin 1772 Pte Mechanic age 21 Hunters Hill NSW and Kerry Ireland Enl 11-1-16 in 1 LHR (2479) to 12 LHR 30-5-16 Emb 6R/ICC. Disemb Melbourne 15-12-16 disch 18-12-16 med unfit VD

CUNNANE James 1800 Pte Tmber Worker age 21 Perth Wa and Claremorree Ireland Enl 18-1-15 Emb 4R/16Bn. ToS BCo 2-6-15 WIA 9-8-15 (BW R/leg) rtn 15-10-15 Gallipoli. 1Bn 1Co 25-1-16 to AAVC Trg depot 27-5-18 to LH Dtls 1-7-18 to S/Smith 36Co AASC AMDT 7-9-18 to 32Co 27-1-19 to to 35Co 16-5-19 to 38Co 18-5-19 RTA 15-6-19 "Essex" Later WWII (W237046) Cpl AProvC Enl 13-3-40 disch 26-7-44

TOBIN Thomas 1895 Pte Groom age 44 Melbourne Vic and Glanmire Ireland Enl 25-1-17 Emb 7R/ICC. Dtls camp 20-6-17 to hosp 26-6-17 (mumps) RTA 23-8-17 "Boorara" med unfit old fracture R/leg disch 12-11-17

CASEY Michael 1927 Pte Labourer age 28 Brisbane Qld and Strabane Ireland Enl 23-7-15 Emb 3R/26Bn. ToS 12-10-15 Gallipoli. 1Bn 1Co 30-1-16 WIA 29-4-17 (GSW hand) "accident shot his fingers" rtn 24-7-17 to ADS 27-9-17 FGCM 20-10-17 sentenced 90 days FP 2 rtn 16-4-18 to LH Dtls 1-7-18 to 2 LHR 8-10-18 (1927a) to hosp 2-2-19 (dysentery) RTA 14-3-19 "Euripides" med unfit

NEGLE Patrick 1989 Pte (Boer War Royal Munster Fusiliers 6 years) Labourer age 26 Sydney NSW and Cork Ireland Enl 8-6-15 Emb 3R/18Bn. ToS ACo 24-10-15 Gallipoli. 1Bn 4Co 31-1-16 to T/L/Cpl 24-2-16 WIA 19-4-17 2nd Gaza (GSW R/arm) rtn 18-6-17 to FGCM 30-5-18 "attempting to desert" "AWoL 20-3-18 to 12-4-18 surrendered in France" sentenced 75 days FP 2 to 14 LHR 12-7-18 (1989a) RTA 24-7-19 "Dongola"

BELL James 1991 Pte Stockrider age 23 Glebe Pt NSW and Randels Ireland Enl 28-9-15 Emb 14R/7 LHR. 2 LHTR 23-4-16 to (2 double sqn) 6-7-16 to 4 Cml Regt 2-11-16 to 4Bn 17Co 7-2-17 WIA 27-3-18 Amman (GSW head) to CSqn/12 LHR 31-7-18 (1991a) to UK leave 1-5-19 RTA 19-8-19 "Ajana"

RICE Henry 2052 Pte Labourer age 35 Sydney NSW and Belfast Ireland Enl 13-12-16 Emb 7R/ICC. 3Bn 11Co 4-17 to 15 LHR 7-18 RTA 24-7-19

LYNCH Joseph 2214 Sig Cook age 39 Woorooloo WA and Mayo Ireland (British 2nd Royals 16 years) Enl 3-11-15 Emb 15R/10 LHR. 3 LHTR 26-4-16 to (3 double sqn) 6-7-16 to 4 Cml Regt 2-11-16 to 4Bn 18Co 7-2-17 to FGCM 16-1-18 "insubordinate language to officer" "sentenced 1 months FP 1" to CSqn/8 LHR 31-7-18 to hosp 23-8-18 (injury head and back) "accident" rtn 18-11-18 RTA 3-7-19 "Malta"

SULLIVAN Jack 2218 Pte Labourer age 21 Rockhampton Qld and Tralee Kerry Ireland Enl Emb 15R/2 LHR. 1 LHTR 5-5-16 to 2 LHR 16-6-16 to hosp 18-6-16 (hernia) rtn 1 LHTR 30-6-16 to 3Bn 14Co 7-7-16 rtn 2 LHR 26-7-18 to hosp 26-10-18 (malaria) DoD 1-11-18 died of malaria at 66 CCS. Buried at Damascus War Cemetery Brothers William Royal Munster Fusiliers KIA, Michael RAMC and Thomas 2Bn Royal Irish Rifles

LOVE James Robert Beattie 2241 Pte Missionary Presbyterian Mission to the Aborigines age 26 Strathalbyn SA born Killeter Ireland 16-6-1889 Enl 9-11-15 Emb A/Cpl 15R/3 LHR. 1 LHTR 15-4-16 to 1Bn 1Co 5-5-16 to A/Cpl 15-12-16 to T/Sgt 25-12-16 to Sgt 12-3-17 Awarded DCM MID at 2nd Gaza 19-4-17 "For carrying, attending and recovering wounded to safety under heavy fire" to T/CSM 19-6-17 prom 2/Lt 1-8-17 to 1Bn 4Co 18-9-17 prom Lt 1-11-17 Awarded MC at Musallabeh 11-4-18 "For repelling enemy attacks with his MG teams" to CSqn/14 LHR 1-7-18 WIA 30-9-18 at Damascus (GSW L/hand) RTA 23-12-18 "Leistershire" med unfit later superintendent at Mapoon an Aboriginal mission on the west coast of Cape York Peninsula wrote "Stone-Age Bushmen of Today" died of kidney disease on 19 February 1947 buried in Centennial Park cemetery

MURPHY Patrick 2420 Pte Labourer age 31 Coolamon NSW and Valley Mount Ireland Enl 5-2-17 Emb 9R/ICC. Dtls camp 4-4-17 to Dvr 1 LH Sig Sqn 4-5-17 to Spr 6-8-17 to Sig Trg depot (Cooks cse) 16-11-17 (qual 18-12-17 att Cable Sect AIF HQ 12-2-18 to 2 LH Sig Sqn 9-7-18 RTA 15-3-19 "Euripides" Later WWII (W84147) Pte 10Bn VDC Enl 9-5-42 disch Unknown

HAIG Charles Wolseley 2809 Pte Miner age 43 Perth WA and Belfast Ireland Enl 6-1-17 Emb 10R/ICC. Dtls camp 20-6-17 to CTU 16-7-17 to 4Bn 18Co 26-8-17 to L/Cpl 9-11-17 revert Pte 15-4-18 to hosp 23-4-18 (dental) to 2 LHR 26-7-18 to hosp 6-10-18 (dysentry) DoD 6-11-18 of dysentry at 34th CCH Jerusalem. Buried at Jerusalem War Cemetery

DOYLE Patrick 2811 Pte Labourer age 23 Boree Creek via The Rock NSW and Beaufort Kerry Ireland Enl 25-1-16 Emb 19R/6 LHR. 2 LHTR 12-8-16 to 1Bn 4Co 7-9-16 att 1Bn 1Co 21-12-16 WIA 23-12-16 at Magdhaba "burnt hand on Turkish rifle in redoubt " rtn 4Co 26-12-16 to hosp 9-8-17 (enteric) rtn 22-2-18 to hosp 14-5-18 (malaria) to 14 LHR 7-8-18 to hosp 15-11-18 (VD) rtn 11-3-19 to UK Leave 7-5-19 RTA 5-9-19 "Plassy" Later WWII (N215913) Pte 38 Employment Company Enl 6-1-42 disch 26-11-45

CRONIN Michael 2893 A/Cpl Labourer age 41 Wonganderry NSW and Kerry Ireland (British Royal Munster Fusiliers) Enl 8-2-17 Emb 8R/ICC. CTU 16-7-17 to 1Bn 1Co 5-9-17 to hosp 21-11-17 (piles) to Dtls rest camp (class B 2) RTA 26-3-18 "Port Darwin" disch 3-9-18 Brother F.Cronin RMF British Army

MATEER Frederick Mills 4422 Pte Planter age 23 Melbourne Vic and Belfast Ireland Enl 18-1-15 Emb BCo/21Bn (437). To 5 FCE (4422) 6-8-15 to Gallipoli 19-10-15. 1Bn 3Co 11-3-16 to MPS (AProvC) 22-3-16 to A/Cpl AGBD UK 22-11-16 to Spr 8 FCE 29-12-16 F&B RTA 25-1-19 "Ceramic" 1914/15 Leave

SCOTT-HIGGINS Francis Charles Lt Motor Mechanic age 30 Strathfield NSW and Boyle Ireland (2 years Royal Irish Rifles and 2 years RAOC) Enl 14-8-15 Emb 1R/ICC. 3Bn 11Co 23-7-16 to 1Bn 2Co 8-8-16 rtn 11Co 29-3-17 "as a resault of "Court of Inquiry 29-3-17 into Capt Morgan" prom Lt 3-1-17 to 3Bn 14Co 15-4-17 to ASqn/15 LHR 1-7-18 att 5 LH Bde HQ 17-7-18 prom T/Capt 27-12-18 to OC A Sqn 3-19 to hosp 13-6-19 (malaria) RTA 17-7-19 "Dunluce Castle" med unfit

Many of these aussie returned to Ireland/UK on leave after the war and many had there photo taken with Irish relations, but a look at the photo's may give some insight?

Sorry its not much help but untill we get a name its almost impossible to stay who they are?

S.B

[ssscooter]

[ssscooter]

The gent standing by himself is in another photo taken a few years later (by the hair loss) in Patrick St (?) Cork. But you are right ... they might have travelled to or from Australia or Britain back home. I'm working on the theory of the Healy family or associated families, eg. Timothy Daniel Sullivan's sons/grandsons... whom where more of a Cork based family...

The Healy family member the photo is from has no Australian connection, that they knew off... but I did find one of theirs who fought for Australia. But whether his was associated with the Camel Corps.. His details are - Healy, Hugh Owen - 3 FAB [Field Artillery Brigade] - 13 to 16 Reinforcements (December 1915 - April 1916)

I can see the triangle patch of the safari helmet, what a shame it's not in colour... Will the style of the uniform help in associated the guys with the country they served with?

Look forward for your comments.. Cheers

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Your right these men are wearing British pattern desert uniforms, none shown wear aussie uniforms so we must conclude that these are British members of the ICC.

I have no man named Healy or Sullivan in the ICC, that I can find to date?

I am sorry but my lists of ICC soldiers is limited to date with whom I can identify as serving in the ICC.

So far I have ID'ed some 1700 plus British soldiers who served in the British part of the ICC but as stated none by the name of Healy or Sullivan.

I am sure there must be at lest one name Sullivan but I failed as yet to find one?

Like I said I have no NOK's for the men I have in the British ICC so can't confirm there being from Ireland.

But like many British units there were many Irish born soldiers spread threw out the British units during the war.

The triangle patch was worn by all units of the ICC, only the colour could ID who was in which unit of the ICC.

Red (dark) - aussie 1st Bn ICC

Black - British 2nd Bn ICC

Green (grass) - aussie 3rd Bn ICC

Blue (dark) - aussie and NZ 4th Bn ICC

Sorry

S.B

[ssscooter]

Not to worry Steve... it's a start.. and just from the number of men that where in the ICC.. it could be a case of just wait and see.. At least the photo's are up in here.. might get a bite one day...

Thanks again..

[ssscooter]

Just to throw another name in the ring.. Eugene Percy Shine.. but he would have been 40ish in 1915.. he was a lifer in the army but was Waterford, Ireland by birth.. Live in England before the start of WW1 and attended the rank of Captain circa 1909. I have no idea if Captain is higher than three stripes..

Cheers and thanks again for looking for taking the time to answer.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Sorry no "Shines" have I found, these come close?

Shand Alexander 50235 Pte 7Co Ex Scottish Horse Yeo (5058) and Hussars to Royal Highlanders (316142)
Shaw George A. 2661 L/Cpl 5Co Ex 2/4 West Kent Regt (TF/2661) (203295) WIA cheek WIA 27-3-17
Shedden Alexander B. 51240 Pte ICC? Ex RAMC (236) and Hussars
Sheehan William W. 51126 Pte ICC? Ex City of London Yeo (2684) and Hussars
Shelton Harold T. 50683 Pte ICC? Ex Stafford Yeo (2960) and Hussars
Sheppard David W 51009 Pte ICC 5Co? Ex The Queen's West Surrey Regt (3389) and Hussars
Sheppard Oliver 51007 Pte ICC Ex East Surrey Regt (G3/9375) and Hussars
Sherreard George E. 51298 Pte ICC Ex Rifle Brigade (4198) and Hussars
Sherwen Andrew 51321 Pte ICC? Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13622) and Hussars
Shilton Arthur G. 50744 Pte 10Co Ex Lincoln Yeo (2427) and Hussars (612059) KIA 7-11-17
Shute Stanley W 50086 Pte ICC Ex Dorset Yeo (1415) and Hussars

Eugene Percy Shine may refer to this man from the Medal index cards;

Shine, E P F Supply and Transport Corps Major

He has no ID of the initals, but Eguene Percy (F) Shine looks about right.

Cheers

S.B

[ssscooter]

That would be him.. I have found Eugene Percy Forrest Shine on the medal cards in ancestry, but didn't know his Corps.. so I can cross him of the list of suspects for the Camel Corps..

thanks Steve

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

While a possible answer maybe some thing like this?

A large number of British soldiers, as well as aussies where transfered into the new Camel transport Corps, these soldiers were given SNCO rank (Sgt to Warrent officer ranks) and provided the command structure for the Camel Transport Corps.

Others were also taken into the newly formed British Camel transport Corps but most of these started as Cpl's and Sgts being all Sgts later in the war.

Many of these men were given officer rank and moved into the Egyptian Camel transport Corps.

Now a number of officers were also moved into the CTC/ECTC and Maj Shines rank and Corps shows that its a possible for him in the Supply and Transport Corps.

While these men were not fighting soldiers as they moved stores and such along the long desert routes all over Egypt Palestine and the Sudan.

I am sorry to say I have ID'ed few of these men as they fall outside of my interest in the ICCm but thats a possible answer to that photo?

These men I have found were in this Corps;

Amos Arthur G. 51107 Pte ICC? to ECTC Ex Warwick Yeo (2721) and Hussars to Stafford Yeo (310719)
Andrews James B Lt to T/Capt ECTC Ex Royal Scots transfered 27-6-17 to RASC
Bailey M T/Lt T/Capt CTC MID
Bannister Vet/Sgt RCo/CTC Ex RAVC
Bayne-Jardine TE Maj CTC MID
Beal Frederick T/24526 Sgt to T/CQMS CTC MID Ex RASC
Beerman John Stanley T/440557 CQMS to CTC DCM Ex Colour/Sgt RASC and Northampton Regt (21752)
Belgrave Charles Dalrymple 2/Lt CTC Ex 2/Lt 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt and RASC
Bell Henry Ingram 2/Lt CTC Ex RQMS The Queen's West Surrey Regt (186) and RASC
Bentwich Norman De Mattos Capt CTC and RASC
Birkett William Edmund 2864 Sgt CTC Ex RAMC to RASC (T/440576)
Blaylock Rowland T4/212961 Sgt CTC DCM Ex RASC
Bonellie William 2/Lt 9Co? or CTC Ex Sgt King's Own Scottish Borderers
Boyce Arthur C. 50032 Pte 8Co MID Ex Bucks Yeo (2219) to ECTC to Worster Yeo (205812)
Brooker Arthur H.K. SE/43355 S/Sgt Army Veterinary Corps to A/Vet/Sgt ACo/CTC MID
Buckland Lionel T/Maj OC No1 CTC depot MID Ex T/Lt RN and RASC rtn RASC
Carter T. 51069 Pte CTC Ex 1/7Bn Manchester Regt (1281) and 1/7Bn Cheshire Regt (291267) and 6/7Bn Mancester Regt (3517817)
Chetwynd Arthur Henry Tabot Capt ECTC MC MID Ex 1/1 Derby Yeo rtn
Clark Arthur Lt ECo/CTC Ex RASC
Clayes Des 2/Lt CTC recom - for his work att 3 LH Bde at Wadi Muksheilb 12-6-16 to T/Maj Ex RASC
Clayson W.W. 51021 Pte ICC? to CTC Ex East Kent Regt (2579) rtn (12217)
Collins Arthur T/4 056529 Wo2 T/CQMS B Sect LCo/CTC recom - for his work at Rafa Ex RASC
Coxon Frederick H RA/28924 Sgt ACSM CTC Italy BM Ex RGA to RASC (T/41687)
Cripps Sidney Gilbert T4/211620 Sgt to T/CQMS CTC MID Ex RASC
Day GD 2/Lt T/Capt CTC and RASC MID
Denton Harry Bengley 2/Lt CTC Ex SQMS CTC (2600) and RASC
Des Clayes C T/Maj CTC MID Ex T/Capt RASC
Dibley John Hunt 2/Lt to CTC to Capt MC Ex RASC
Doorly James Connor 3282 T/CQMS CTC 2xMID
Drain George 129 CSM ECo/CTC prom 2/Lt RASC Ex RAMC
Drew Sgt RCo/CTC to CQMS
Duggan William Emanuel 51468 Pte ICC to ECTC Ex Royal Irish Rifles (1/40956)
Ebsworth Lt RCo/CTC
Feaver Lt HCo/CTC
Fitzgerald Capt to Maj CTC
Flower Stanley Smyth Maj OC No1 CTC depot Ex Northumberland Fusiliers
Gent Roberts Maughan 2/Lt CTC to T/Maj OC MC - for his work att 53 Div Ex RASC
Goldman Julius Israel Lt HCo/CTC Ex RASC
Graham William Vass 2/Lt CTC Ex Pte Glasgow Yeo (1924) (95058) and CQMS RASC
Grant J Sgt QCo/CTC
Harari Ralph Andrew 2/Lt ECTC to Capt
Henderson CSM OCo/CTC
Hicks Sidney CR 5325 CQMS CTC Ex Middlesex Regt (5325) and Sgt RASC (T/422647)
Hinchley BT Lt T/Capt CTC MID
Hinde Capt OC HCo/CTC
Horton James CTC
Howes Ernest J 2/Lt ECTC Ex Essex Regt transfered 23-7-17
Johnston Rutherford H Lt CTC Ex RASC
Jones JV S4/086084 S/Sgt CTC MID Ex RASC
Kirk James 699 CQMS CQMS CTC prom 2/Lt 10Bn Manchester att 2Bn VC whilst attempting to bridge the Oise Canal 4-11-18 F&B Ex Pte 6Bn Manchester
Lawson James Marcer 2/Lt RASC to ECTC
Le Monnier Arthur 10153 Cpl ECo/CTC Ex Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry to Sgt RASC (T/41963)
Lowden Andrew A/Maj CTC MID Ex RASC
Lowe Walter BJ T/440573 L/Cpl A/CSM CTC MID to RSM RASC Ex Royal Army Medical Corps (156)
Lowick J Capt OC OCo/CTC 4-17 to Maj Ex RASC
Malloch Solomon Thompson T/422629 Pte A/CQMS CTC MID Ex Scottish Horse (3522) and Royal Highlanders (316078)
Marten Robert Humphrey T/Capt CTC MID Ex RASC
Martin Archibald 2/Lt CTC Ex Hertford Yeo (1226) to RASC
McKenzie Alexander 50194 Pte 7Co to ECTC Ex Scottish Horse Yeo (5700) and Hussars to Royal Engineers (411877) to Royal Highlanders (316089)
Moore Charles Edwin H T/422638 CQMS to CTC MID Ex Devon Regt (2427) to SQMS (345185) and RASC
Nichol George T4/247155 Sgt to CTC MID Ex RASC
Peel Willoughby Ewart Lt to T/Capt No 2 depot ECTC recom DSO - for his command of depot Ex RASC
Rowe WJ 2/Lt CTC rtn 1/4 DCLI
Rusbridge Frederick E SE/11448 Pte A/Vet/Sgt CTC MID Ex Army Veterinary Corps
Sandbach Sgt HCo/CTC
Sanders George F TT/02515 Pte to A/Sgt CTC MID Ex Royal Army Veterinary Corps
Scrivener Walter E 51181 Pte ICC or ECTC Ex Essex Regt (275985) to Suffolk Regt (70696)
Smith HB T/2/Lt CTC MID Ex RASC
Stephenson Harold Turner 2/Lt ICC or CTC Ex County of London Yeo
Stockton Harry SE/18284 Pte Army Veterinary Corps to A/Vet/Sgt CTC MID
Suter H Capt OC PCo/CTC
Swallow JL Capt T/Maj CTC MID Ex Lancashire Fusiliers and RASC
Tanner Humphrey Capt ECTC Ex 2/Lt Hampshire Regt and Indian Army
Taylor Frederick 2/Lt CTC died
Thompson GA Lt CTC
Townsend Harry 50685 Pte ICC to ECTC Ex Stafford Yeo (2546) and Hussars
Trestrail Eric TC 2/Lt CTC Ex 2/Lt Dorset Yeo to RASC
Trotter Henry Lomas 2/Lt ECTC Ex Cheshire Regt transfered 30-6-17 to T/Capt RASC
Trouncer Thomas Geoffrey Beauchamp Capt CTC to 1 Donkey Transport Co to RASC Ex 2/Lt Berkshire Yeo
Webber L/Cpl CTC Ex 16Bn Devon Regt from North Devon or Devon Yeo
Weeding George 50973 Pte ICC 5Co? to CTC Ex Sussex Regt (4/4051) and Hussars
Welch Vet/Sgt RCo/CTC Ex RAVC
Whittingham Charles Herbert T/LtCol CTC DSO Ex RASC
Wright TH 5040 CSM CTC Ex Lancashire Fusiliers to RASC (T/41696)
Yates H Wo2 CTC?

This is by no means a complete list but a start for some one.

Cheers

S.B

[scottiebird]

long shot - but do you have a James Turner b 1882 - note have say he joined the Scottish Horse and Essex regiments in 1914 and was attached to the Imperial Cavalry - I have been unable to find his service number etc due to the number of James Turners - he was born in Airdrie and I know he was in Egypt as I have a photo of him on a camel with the pyramids behind - he also spoke about serving under Lawrence of Arabia - but that may have been poetic licence! He served 4 years in the Peninsula, Egypt, Palestine and Arabia according to a newspaper cutting.

thanks

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I am sorry to say I have IDentified some 219 men from the Scottish Horse in the ICC to date.

But so far none are named Turner?

Most served in two units of the ICC, that being the 26 MG Sqn (265 MG Co) and the 7th Company (2nd British Bn) ICC.

The 7th Company was formed from the Infantry but disbanded and reformed from the Scotish Horse, Lanark, Fife and Forfar and Aryshire yeomanrys in 1916.

The 26 MG Sqn was formed from the Scottish horse in early 1917.

Most were sent all over the place on the disbandment of most ICC companies in June 1918. But the 7th Company was amount the two ICC companies sent to help Lawrence in Arabia in late 1918 and many found graves fighting with Lawrence during that time in fighting at Mudawarra 8 Aug 1918.

I have only one man named Turner and he is;

Turner John 51125 Pte 7Co ICC Ex Lanark Yeo (1311) and Hussars

For what you give this appears not to be the man your after.

Sorry but my lists are by no way complete, any details you may have on him could, but I will place his name down untill more details are found.

Thanks.

S.B

[Ghazala]

I love this anecdote from Lawrence...

"The first time the camels heard the bagpipes they stampeded. Highland regiments and camels did not get on."