Machine gun transport & practise

[Skipman]

Another interesting British Pathé film

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/machine-guns-transport-practise/query/machine+gun+1914+1918

Mike

[centurion]

Guns being fired appear to be Maxims rather than the Vickers (which was lighter) so early in the War and possibly even pre war.

[TonyE]

Definitely a Maxim. Note the depth of the receiver and the relative level of the water jacket to the top of the receiver.

Regards

TonyE

[squirrel]

That one jams nicely....

[centurion]

Definitely a Maxim. Note the depth of the receiver and the relative level of the water jacket to the top of the receiver.

Regards

TonyE

Not to mention the smooth water jacket

[TonyE]

Not to mention the smooth water jacket

Indeed!

Regards

TonyE

[dycer]

OK.

How many esteemed Forum Members wish to be filmed clearing a "stoppage" with a Sgt.,breathing down their necks, a century later?

Surely the "contemporary" latter part, of the film, shows a gun being brought perfectly, into action, but not acting perfectly in action.

But

Do "we" know who crewed the guns?

Did "they" survive WW1?

Was the film,shown in UK ,during WW1?

If so, if it is a contemporary propaganda film,it should be regarded as such but now used for academic interest e.g.Was the Film circulated during WW1 to convey to home audiences an appreciation of the realities,Can 21st Century Arms Experts learn anything from 100 year old machine gun drill?

George

[centurion]

Photos of Maxim armed British troops in WW1 are rare and most (if not all) that come to mind are very early in the war and volunteer battalions etc before going out to France. Whilst the 303 Maxim was not declared officially obsolete in the British Army until 1928 it was effectively so by the beginning of the war as the Vickers officially replaced it in 1912. This would mean that it is likely that either the clip is pre war or the men in it are 2nd line - possibly some form of home defence.

[centurion]

The tripods in the first part of the clip look like Mk IIIs - ie pre 1906 model

[dycer]

Cent,

I choose to differ with your assertion.

Merely because I posses a "contemporary original photograph" of a TF Battalion Maxim Gun section which the local paper re-published,complete with names,in 1964, stating "the original photograph was taken a few days before the Battalion left for France ,in November 1914, and the guns used for deadly effect".

I accept having an "original "photo of a TF Battalion Maxim Gun Section should not be accepted as proving that the guns were transported to France,in 1914, and used in action.

But it was an original member of the Battalion who saw the reprinted Paper photo and saved it.

Such is provenance.

George

[centurion]

I would be extremely interested if you can provide any evidence of the British army using Maxims in France in 1914 (or indeed any time afterwards). Other that is than the occasional captured one.

[Guest]

The LLT has a picture of a maxim in action at Ypres Click some of you might be able to tell if if the gun in the photo is a maxim, or a vickers?

Mike

[dycer]

Cent,

As the "original" is framed ,by me,I cannot e-mail it.

But if you p.m., I'll send you a "photo" of the re-printed article or point "you" in the direction of a web-site which displays the reprinted article.

It is,of course,your right to separate fact from fiction.

Accepting,of course,that the photo shows a TF 1914 Battalion Maxim Gun Team a few days before it left for France in November 1914,according to the re-printed photograph.

It is,therefore,open to question if a "TF Battalion Maxim Gun Section" could be called as members of the Battalion ,for service abroad, in November 1914 and be issued,in a few days with a better gun,fire it,etc?

George

[TonyE]

There were only about 100 Vickers guns in service at the outbreak of war (History of the Ministry of Munitions, Vol.XI. Part V. p.9) and only a further 266 were made in the remainder of 1914. It is inevitable that some units took their Maxim guns to France.

I suspect the Royal Naval Division, at least initially, used Maxim guns as the Admiralty did not adopt the Vickers until the end of the war. Enfield continued to make small numbers of Maxims "for the Admiralty and the War Office" (same reference as above) until mid 1917, producing 38 in 1915, 307 in 1916 and 308 in 1917.

Unfortunately, the gun in Skipman's picture is a Vickers with fluted water jacket. I am sure that I have seen pictures of the Maxim in France, although I do not have any to hand to prove the point.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Cent,

I choose to differ with your assertion.

Merely because I posses a "contemporary original photograph" of a TF Battalion Maxim Gun section which the local paper re-published,complete with names,in 1964, stating "the original photograph was taken a few days before the Battalion left for France ,in November 1914, and the guns used for deadly effect".

I accept having an "original "photo of a TF Battalion Maxim Gun Section should not be accepted as proving that the guns were transported to France,in 1914, and used in action.

But it was an original member of the Battalion who saw the reprinted Paper photo and saved it.

Such is provenance.

George

I would of course place the same degree of credence in the accuracy of a local newspaper report of 1914, or 1964 as I would in one today just as I can remember clearly exactly the details of things that happened 50 years ago!

The LLT has a picture of a maxim in action at Ypres Click some of you might be able to tell if if the gun in the photo is a maxim, or a vickers?

Mike

It appears to be a Vickers

[centurion]

There were only about 100 Vickers guns in service at the outbreak of war (History of the Ministry of Munitions, Vol.XI. Part V. p.9) and only a further 266 were made in the remainder of 1914. It is inevitable that some units took their Maxim guns to France.

I suspect the Royal Naval Division, at least initially, used Maxim guns as the Admiralty did not adopt the Vickers until the end of the war. Enfield continued to make small numbers of Maxims "for the Admiralty and the War Office" (same reference as above) until mid 1917, producing 38 in 1915, 307 in 1916 and 308 in 1917.

Unfortunately, the gun in Skipman's picture is a Vickers with fluted water jacket. I am sure that I have seen pictures of the Maxim in France, although I do not have any to hand to prove the point.

Regards

TonyE

I did say ARMY I'm well aware that the Navy did cling to a number of older technologies

[centurion]

But in any case none of this disproves the point that the clip is most likely to be pre war or a 2nd line unit in Britain.

[Andrew Upton]

I would be extremely interested if you can provide any evidence of the British army using Maxims in France in 1914 (or indeed any time afterwards). Other that is than the occasional captured one.

Courtesy of Dolf Goldsmith's "Grand Old Lady", page 47 - "Thus, in addition to it's 1,846 Service Maxims, the British Army had taken delivery of only 109 Vickers guns and the Navy two by August 6, 1914". Page 54-58 - between August 1914 and December 1916 total Vickers gun production still numbered just under 10,000 Vickers, a little over 400 by the end of 1914, still less than 3000 by December 1915.

Courtesy of Dolf Goldsmith's "The Devil's Paintbrush", page 126-127: Enfield Arsenal Maxim production August 1914-1917 was 756 guns. Only with LoC No.21131 in June 1917 was gun and spares manufacture ceased, with all guns kept in use as long as spares already made allowed, after which they were replaced with Vickers.

[centurion]

According to a statement by Kitchener in a report presented to Parliament 5,000 Vickers had been delivered by the end of 1914 (ie by Jan 1915) But all of this is still missing the point - the British army was desperately replacing its Maxims in 1914/15 so that the guns in the clip are either pre war or 2nd line from a later date.

[centurion]

Courtesy of Dolf Goldsmith's "Grand Old Lady", page 47 - "Thus, in addition to it's 1,846 Service Maxims, the British Army had taken delivery of only 109 Vickers guns and the Navy two by August 6, 1914". Page 54-58 - between August 1914 and December 1916 total Vickers gun production still numbered just under 10,000 Vickers, a little over 400 by the end of 1914, still less than 3000 by December 1915.

Courtesy of Dolf Goldsmith's "The Devil's Paintbrush", page 126-127: Enfield Arsenal Maxim production August 1914-1917 was 756 guns. Only with LoC No.21131 in June 1917 was gun and spares manufacture ceased, with all guns kept in use as long as spares already made allowed, after which they were replaced with Vickers.

By June 1916 16,000 had been delivered (parliamentary report) so I'm not sure where these figures are coming from

[TonyE]

The figures are coming from the History of the Ministry of Munitions. Vickers production up to the end of 1916 was:

In service Aug 1914: 109

Aug - Dec 1914: 266

1915: 2405

1916: 7429

Total: 10209

Regards

TonyE

[Andrew Upton]

Thanks Tony, sounds like the Parliamentary reports didn't have a real clue as to what was going on...

[TonyE]

I suspect there was confusion between the number oredered and the number delivered.

Regards

TonyE

[RobL]

Would the x2 Maxims in the Hampshire Regiment museum that were abandoned in France in autumn 1914 serve as proof? I've got a few photos of British Maxims in France in 1915 too

[Andrew Upton]

But all of this is still missing the point - the British army was desperately replacing its Maxims in 1914/15 so that the guns in the clip are either pre war or 2nd line from a later date.

Not at all - the Maxim served equally alongside the Vickers throughout the war. At the start the Maxims greatly outnumbered the Vickers and would have born the brunt of the fighting. As the Vickers become more widely available, whilst a team would have been more likely to be issued a newly made Vickers simply on numerical grounds they could equally have still been issued with a Maxim, albeit these were always more unpopular due to the extra weight when compared to the Vickers. There is at least one account of a MG section on the Western front where one of their guns was one of the trials Vickers from before the war and the other was one of the older pattern Maxims. When told to hand them over with out-going MG sections (so as to keep a mounted MG in place at all times), they refused to hand over the Vickers as they thought so highly of it, but recalled that when it came to the Maxim they couldn't be happier to see the back of it!

Would the x2 Maxims in the Hampshire Regiment museum that were abandoned in France in autumn 1914 serve as proof? I've got a few photos of British Maxims in France in 1915 too.

Please do post the pictures if you can Rob, more evidence to prove their frontline use is always welcome!