WW1 Vickers steam port attachment photos?

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,
Does anyone have any good clear photo's of the WW1 period Vickers steam hose attachments on both the gun and the hose? I can find many of the 1919 type fitting, but nothing too clear of the war time configuration. Modern photo's would be most welcome.
Are these parts still possible to find for sale as either original or replacement items? I have the offer of a Jan 1918 made Vickers. Will have to sell a lot of items to get it, but it is a gun I have always much admired.
Many thanks,
Stewart

[Dave1418]

Hi Stuart,

if you pm me your email address I'll dig out an original hose and send you a couple of photos as I have problems uploading onto the forum.

regards

Dave

[Andrew Upton]

Second photo in post three should help - the hose in this case is a modern reproduction, but of the correct metal tubing with the screw-on brass fitting as used during the war:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197213&hl=photographer#entry1932658

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Andrew,
What a great photograph. What does the mount on the gun look like, does it have some sort of thread that the hose screws into? Are modern replacement easy to get a hold of?
Many thanks,
Stewart

[Andrew Upton]

Hello Andrew,

What a great photograph. What does the mount on the gun look like, does it have some sort of thread that the hose screws into? Are modern replacement easy to get a hold of?

Many thanks,

Stewart

This is what the gun looks like without the hose attachment fitted:

http://postimg.org/image/509mnt1fh/

There is a screw fitting permanently attached to the waterjacket. The hose has a two-piece brass fitting at the end (mine isn't easily to hand or I'd take a picture to illustrate), comprising a hollow plug that goes on the smooth inside, and a seperate screw fitting that goes on the outside to hold the lot firmly together. When the hose isn't in use the thread protector (the O-shaped brass thing) screws on instead to protect the thread, and the cork goes through the hole to keep the water in the jacket as it's being moved about (missing in this case, need to sort a replacement out).

This wasn't a very good design, prone to damage and time consuming to fit and remove the hose, so after the war they started to use rubber hoses with a "quick release" fitting. To accomodate this, the quick release adaptor (the steel fitting bottom right) was added to all guns still serving and fitted as standard to all new made guns.

My hose was a "The Gunner" reproduction IIRC - they still have them listed, but currently out of stock. I believe this was the same situation when I bought mine, and after enquiring they then had one made up:

http://thegunner.net/khxc/gbu0-prodshow/vickers_ww1_repro_hose.html

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Andrew,
Thank you for you full and easy to understand answer. It is great that the original fitting is under the 1919 type quick release fitting, that makes it much easier to replace compared to trying to find two parts, which is the case with my MG08 steam port!
I have borrowed a copy of The Grand Old Lady of No-mans-land, from a friend but it was not as clear as you answer. I may be buying a Jan 1918 made Vickers on a early 1920's dated tripod, but I will have to sell a few bits first to say the least! Still it's about half the price I can buy one from a dealer and I have always loved this gun.
Is your Auxiliary tripod a modern replacement, or an original one? It's very nice.
Regards,
Stewart

[Andrew Upton]

...It is great that the original fitting is under the 1919 type quick release fitting, that makes it much easier to replace compared to trying to find two parts, which is the case with my MG08 steam port! ... I may be buying a Jan 1918 made Vickers on a early 1920's dated tripod ... Is your Auxiliary tripod a modern replacement, or an original one? It's very nice.

It is useful the original fitting simply had an adaptor added - when I acquired mine it came with a WW2 Aussie hose and various WW2 accessories. I wanted to take it back to its original 1918 appearance, so a few minutes work with the pliers and the adaptor was off, and the old thread exposed probably for the first time in 60 years. Earlier dated tripods are certainly nice, mine is a 1941 so slightly different to WW1 issue. The Sangster tripod is a Dickie Knight repro, originals are very rare as they were declared obsolete and most scrapped after the end of the war. It should also have a matching cradle to house the legs when not in use (hence the 08 support strap as a substitute!).

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Andrew,
Thank you once again for all of your help. After much reading over the week end and studying the photographs I took of the Vickers kindly offered to me, I notice that it has a Mark III** sight, which I notice most seem to have. Do you know if it is possible to get good replacements/originals of these, or is it something you have never worried too much about? Having said all that, I have not bought the gun yet, and that is the main thing to do really. I have an understanding wife! I should really go off and see what I am going to sell in order to achieve the goal of having my own Vickers!
I will always remember the first time I handled a Vickers, it was at the DLI museum. I was so impressed with it, even then I thought it was a very well made, robust gun and have always wanted one since! That is over 25 years ago now.
Many thanks once again for taking the time and trouble to fully answer all of my questions and also for taking the time to add some very nice photographs.
Regards,
Stewart

[Andrew Upton]

...I notice that it has a Mark III** sight, which I notice most seem to have. Do you know if it is possible to get good replacements/originals of these, or is it something you have never worried too much about? ...

Mine is the same, it is on the "to-do" list of things to change should I get the opportunity, but I am not aware of anyone who had ever reproduced the earlier pattern, and the only ones I've ever seen sold on their own are the later ones.

[trenchtrotter]

My 1916 L series has a later sight too but a ww1 slide bit! (The bit that goes up and down the graduated ladder)! My gun has a 1915 dated cross head, 1916 dated tripod, 1917 dated cross head pin an ad 1918 dated range finder / direction dial.

Hope your acquisition goes ok!

Regards

TT

Re getting a correct ladder, on my list of wants too!

[gnr.ktrha]

That sounds like a cracking gun, TT. Looks like I am allowed to join the club. Mrs ktrha has agreed that it would make a great Christmas/Birthday present, which will account for all my presents over the next couple of years! But I am more than happy with this arrangement, it beets getting socks etc.!
I may post some photo's of it here when I take it into my care.
Regards,
Stewart

[gnr.ktrha]

_{Hello folks,
I am now the very proud owner of the Jan 1918 made Vickers Machine Gun . I have not been all over it yet, but it dose have some WW2 refurb dates stamped into it, and DP stamped on it, so it has had a long service.
The Steam Hose mount does unscrew, so I can, at some point, buy the correct WW1 pattern hose. It came with the 1919 pattern steam hose connector and mount, {the hose is a more modern bit of rubber}. It has a 1943 dated, 250 round ammo belt, made by Dunlope, this is the same pattern as the WW1 belts, so I can live with that until I find an earlier one, but that is not something I am in too much of a hurry to do.
The one thing I am keen to replace is the Ammo box. It came with the white painted 1930 AVF box. If anyone has the correct WW1 pattern for sale [think its the Mark 8?], or knows where I might get one, please let me know.
The other bit I am after is a Pointer. There is not one mounted on the crosshead, but there are two holes where it has been. I have seen one for sale in the USA, but do not know how much Postage and import fees would be.
It is such an impressive item and so well made and robust. I work in the local studies department of the library so I am hoping to use it as a display piece during some of our family history events over the next few years.
All the best,
Stewart}

[Andrew Upton]

_{The one thing I am keen to replace is the Ammo box. It came with the white painted 1930 AVF box. If anyone has the correct WW1 pattern for sale [think its the Mark 8?], or knows where I might get one, please let me know.}

Have a look here, under Accessories, then Ammunition Boxes and Accessories:

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/

Basically for WW1 you want either a No.3 series wooden box to cover pre/early war (very rare), a No.6 box (first metal type, also very rare), or a No.7, 8 or 9 type box, of which the No.8 is probably the most common, given they were still being made in a slightly modified form in Australia until the end of WW2. They turn up for sale there quite regularly, and if you can pick them up cheap enough the postage isn't too bad...

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Andrew,
I will have a look on some Australian militaria and auction sites to see what turns up. I may even buy the British WW2 type box for now as it will look more in keeping with the gun, rather than the white tin AFV box.
As always, thanks you very much for all of your help and advice. If only Mr.Knight could make his Sangster tripodes again! That would look great on the MG.
Regards,
Stewart

[trenchtrotter]

Ah Stewert welcome to the inner sanctum of the Vickers gun! U need a WW 1 tripod! Congrats on your purchase.

Re the ammo belt I believe Ww2 examples did not have the brass spacers? I am sure Richard Fisher will know.

Re DP marks, nice sign of a long hard life. Mine has such marks too and the tripod signs of the lurid DP paint. Also has German capture marks for regt and Div and June 1917 date marked crudely.

Regards

TT

[Andrew Upton]

Re the ammo belt I believe Ww2 examples did not have the brass spacers? I am sure Richard Fisher will know.

Disposable belts as in common use/manufacture in Britain during WW2 did not have the brass spacers. However Australia continued to make the older pattern belt (which actually pre-dates the Great War, and was originally used in the old brass jacketed .303 Maxims) throughout WW2. These ones are usually rot-proofed though, making them green (WW1 belts are usually white/cream/etc). Basically Australia is the go-to source if you want WW1-style Vickers accessories!

[Richard Fisher]

Is the ammunition belt white or green? If white, as many Australian ones if they've actually seen service, then it will look fine for now. Great War period belts are extremely rare as, understandably, they kept reusing them until beyond unit repair, at which point they were cut into 25-round strips for drill purposes.

No. 8 boxes are available off the shelf depending on how much you want to put into restoring one. I have the plans for a No. 3 box if you are any good with wood and want to make one up?

Pointers are sometimes seen as people strip them off the gun as one of the bits that makes it look more 'Great War'. For the time-being, take the direction dial off as well (as I'm sure it's a Mk. II Dial) and pop to one side. Direction Dials were additional pieces of equipment during the Great War and didn't come issued with the tripod. This then explains the lack of the pointer as well!

Hope that helps.

Richard

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Folks,
My ammo belt is white and does have brass spacers. As I mentioned, it was made by Dunlope in 1943. Was there a Dunlope branch/company in Australia?

Richard,
Where can I buy a No.8 box off the shelf? I see The Gunner has some, but I would be interested to know if there are others available. I understood that the MkII dial and pointer were both in use from September 1917? As my Gun is from early 1918, I think for the present I might keep the MkII Dial on, or is this really not correct for the last year of the war? I am more than happy to be advised. Did your trip last Tuesday go well? I do not suppose you found any additional information about my gun. I should mention that I am the same guy who bought one of your DVD's of manuals the other week and emailed you the gun number.
One last question for now. I am interested in MGC tactics from the Great War, can anyone recommend a good book? Are there also any good personal accounts that can be recommended?
Many thanks,
Stewart

[trenchtrotter]

Same q from me re my L series gun. I have the Mk 11 dial and pointer fitted. The dial is marked B S & Co 1918. Surely if one were depicting a 1918 set up this would be ok to have fitted?

Stewert, re books on the MG and its tactics....

1. With a Machinegun To Cambrai...George Coppard is a good account.

2. Machine Guns and The Great War...Paul Cornish (covers several types and tactics / set ups etc)

3. Machine Guns of World War One by R Bruce is a good reference re several types. Lovely images and how to strip down the gun etc....

4. GS Hutchinsons accounts / memoirs re 33rd MGC

5. Battle Tactics of The Westenrn Front by Paddy Griffith has a useful section on the MGC and Vickers.

Regards

TT

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello TT,
Thanks for the book list. I forgot to say that your gun sounds very interesting. Have you been able to identify which unit it was captured from? As you know the German unit, it might be possible.
I had all my bit out it the garden this afternoon as it is bright and sunny. I just noticed that my belt is an Australian one. From Dolf's book I understand that the cloth was made by Dunlop and that the brass parts were made by Eyelets of Melbourne. Both Eyelets and Dunlop have stamped their details into the starter tab.
The water jacket has been painted at some point as I found some traces of the green paint on the underside.
Regards,
Stewart

[Andrew Upton]

Dolf Goldsmith's Grand-Old-Lady page lists the "Dial, Traversing, MkII" with matching pointer as officially introduced by LoC No 21594 of September 27th 1917, which replaced the "Dial, Direction MkI" and it's matching pointer as adopted October 17th 1915. So a MkII is fine for a 1918 set-up (my tripod is the same).

[Richard Fisher]

My point about the direction dial and pointer is that it equally isn't 'wrong' to not have them at this stage than to have them. They were supplied as separate items of equipment at this point rather than integral to the construction of the tripod.

Stewart, visit went well but too well because I didn't get to look at any of the records as I was too busy with the guns in the collection.

The Dunlop company was an Australian company that produced the belts. No. 8 boxes are available from BRP Corps in the US which is the same source as The Gunner so may be easier to source in the UK through them.

For a contemporary understanding of MGC tactics, read the Machine Gunner's Pocket Book which is on the DVD. Also SS192. Between them all tactics are covered.

Richard

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Richard,

Thank you for getting back to me, I just sent you an email before coming on here. Please ignore it as you have answered my question. There is a mountain of information on your disc, I need to lock myself away for a few hours and read my way through them.

Regards,

Stewart