War Diary 1/10th King's (Liverpool) - Rugby Legends

[CarylW]

Second mention, same source as above (Mcgilchrist) Chapter: The first winter (1914)

'On 14 December, the 8th Brigade carried out an attack with two battalions, Gordon Highlanders and Royal Scots, on the enemy's position in the Petit Bois. They jumped off from the trenches held by the Liverpool Scottish and Northumberland Fusiliers, whose me were withdrawn to Kemmel except for covering parties. The Scottish left in the line one platoon each of the "X" and "Z" Companies, under Lieuts. F.H. Turner and A.A. Gemmell, and the machine-gun section under Lieut. E McKinnell. Owing to a misunderstanding, part of "X" Company's platoon left the trenches with the remainder of the company, and Lieut. Turner, thinking it hardly worth while to keep such a small covering party as the few men who were left, asked the Royal Scots for permission to join them in the attack but this request was refused.....

Caryl

[Aneurin]

Many thanks, Andrew.

I've just done a bit of checking and Robert Jackson and John Ross both played for the Barbarians. Ross was a reserve for Scotland in 1913-14.

Gwyn

[Andrew Hesketh]

I expect that you will already be aware that both the Turner brothers and Percy Kendall all have photographs and biographies in the Rugby Internationals Roll of Honour 1914-18.

Robert, no I wasn't aware of that. If you have any way of scanning the Turner photos' I would be most grateful.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Bibliography here Andrew

http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/~liverpo4/the-museum/history-of-the-regiment/bibliography/

They are truly fascinating. I have a copy of A.M Mcgilchrist 'The Liverpool Scottish 1900-1919' and also 'Citizen Soldiers . The Liverpool Territorials in the First World War' if you need anything from either. According to the index in Mcgilchrist, Lieut F H Turner is mentioned twice within the book and Lieut W Turner once. I'll post them up later - on my way out.

Caryl,

Thanks for that. Joe (Promenade) kindly sent me relevant extracts from McGilchrist, but I would appreciate any reference from the other book. Many thanks for your offer.

EDIT: but not that second one above, so very many thanks for that!

[Andrew Hesketh]

“- - - poor Kendall was killed by what must have been almost a chance shot through one of the loopholes in the trench, and we buried him beside Fred Turner in the little churchyard near the firing line the same night. He was one of our best officers, and will be much missed. We had a Private, young Pollexfen, killed the same day, also a good man.”.

That's great Billy. Their Sp. Memorials are adjacent so it's nice to know that even though the precise location within the cemetery is lost that they were buried side by side as well. Thanks for that.

(Are you able to provide me with the name of the newspaper and the date please? I like to reference things!)

[Andrew Hesketh]

... By a sad coincidence Lieut. Turner's brother, the late F.H. Turner was also struck down by the side of Sergeant Jones, who was with him in his last moments.

Excellent, thanks for that. I had suspected that the Sgt beside Fred was the same one as who was by the side of his brother, and that confirms it. Brilliant.

Remembering Sergeant John Blake Jones.

[CarylW]

Andrew

As requested, from Citizen Soldiers: The Liverpool Territorials in the First World War Helen B McCartney

'....Between 1914 and 1916 the Liverpool Scottish could boast at least seven rugby football internationals, as well as two former rugby captains of England and Scotland. Lieutenant F. H. Turner had captained the Scottish rugby football team and held fifteen caps for Scotland. He had been educated at Sedbergh and Trinity College, Oxford. Lieutenant P. D. Kendall had captained the England side, held three caps for England and had played forty-five matches for Cheshire. He had been educated at Tonbridge and Trinity Hall, Cambridge. These two men were destined to be buried side by side in a churchyard near Ypres.....'

'..........Lieutenant Turner wrote to his mother on 1 June 1915 that he had 'just censored 300 letters during that evening.' It is inconceivable that even the most diligent officer would have found time to scour 300 communications.....;

There is also a mention that the The Turner family collated the obituaries of their sons to form In Memoriam booklets, which were distributed among friends and relatives and the source references for these: Merseyside archives, Merseyside Maritime Museum (if I've read this correctly)

In Memoriam booklet of F. H. Turner, DX 184/3 In Memoriam booklet of W. S. Turner, DX 184/4

Also a reference to The King's Liverpool Regiment Collection Museum of Liverpool life, holding 'Turner papers, Letters of W S Turner, Turner papers, letters and newspaper cuttings'

Any more I'll email them

Caryl

[Andrew Hesketh]

That's excellent Caryl, many thanks for the look-up and typing it out. Looks like a trip to Liverpool is on the cards for me then!

[Ian Riley]

Are we invisible on the Internet?

www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk

[Old Owl]

Robert, no I wasn't aware of that. If you have any way of scanning the Turner photos' I would be most grateful.

Hi Andrew,

If you P.M. me your email I will send you copies of the Turner's photos--do you need their biographies?

Regards, Robert

[Andrew Hesketh]

No Ian, you're not. I have had a good wander around your site.

[daggers]

Although he played only a handful of matches for Liverpool, possibly guesting, Kendall is named on the club's memorial in the Liverpool Cricket Club pavilion, Aigburth.

E.H.Cowan died of illness, i am almost certain.

D

[Andrew Hesketh]

Thanks for the PM and assistance BillyH.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Think you are correct about Cowan Daggers. He was RGA and is listed as 'Died' in SDGW. Buried in Toxteth.

Robert - PM sent. Thanks for the assistance.

[daggers]

Yes, the gravestone has been toppled, sadly,as a safety measure. i may have a photo of it.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Is it not a CWGC one?

[daggers]

No,a family one.

D

[daggers]

Andrew

If you are visiting the Merseyside Maritime Museum archives, make sure it is on a day when they are open! Their search room is small but staff very helpful. You will need a quid for a locker etc.

D

[Andrew Hesketh]

Thanks Daggers.

[Andrew Hesketh]

My public thanks to Robert - Old Owl - for taking the time and effort to send some excellent information.

[BillyH]

Thanks to Robert for the photograph of Percy Kendall, a far better photo than any that I already had.

BillyH.

[Fattyowls]

Thanks to all for a great thread. My interest is primarily the other shaped ball but as I'm off to the area with a Gloucester season ticket holder next week a visit to Kemmel Churchyard may be on the cards. I wasn't going to slog up to the top of Kemmel as it appears from recent photos on the net that the viewpoints are getting obscured by trees but this makes a big difference. Am I correct in saying that Turner was a hooker and Kendall a fly half (I will be asked questions)?

Pete.

[daggers]

Pete

Fred Turner was a hooker, though specialist positions were still new then. He had a nickname, Tankie, which I am certain has no war link, but I do not know the origin. school, perhaps? I think you will find that Kendall was a forward, and anyone over six feet could be described as a giant.

D

[Andrew Hesketh]

I have info that Fred Turner was a flanker.

The nickname 'tankie' was because of his physical bulk and power, despite being 5' 11" in height. This has intrigued me actually. My presumption of the nickname 'tankie' would be because, well, of tanks being big and solid. However, he got this name before such things existed.

Pete - please pay my respects if you go. And any chance of a photo? I have one, but I'm greedy!

[BillyH]

Percy Kendall was 5'-9 1/2" on his service papers, and his nickname was "Toggie." Don't know what position he played though.

I reckon him and Turner must have talked about Rugby quite a few times in what was less than 3 months that they were at the front together?

BillyH.