Captured Boer War Mausers in WWI

[dman]

Recently reading book on Boer War - was wondering if Mauser rifles captured from Boers (Transvaal/Orange Free State)

were later used by Britian.

Were the rifles destroyed?, Sold? or kept in reserve for training and to arm auxiliary units?

Thanx

[Thunderbox]

IIRC, a long time ago on another foum there were posted some photos of a huge mass of twisted rifles that had recently been dug up on the site of a former barracks or police station in South Africa. There were hundreds of rifles, and they were all Boer era - some Martini Henrys and Enfields, but mostly mausers. The rifles had evidently been burnt and then buried. That looks like the fate of at least some of the captured Boer rifles...

[TonyE]

The only Mausers that I know of that were used in WWI were those seized from Chilian and Brazilian battleships building in Britain in 1914. These were issued to minesweepers and armed trawlers for mine hunting.

Regards

TonyE

[Gunner Bailey]

It begs the question, why would you issue rifles where ammunition supply may be difficult? You can't really rely on captured ammunition. John

[TonyE]

Both the Chilian and Brazilian Mausers were in 7x57mm calibre (as indeed were the Boer Mausers). The Royal Navy also had several thousand Remington Rolling Block rifles in the same calibre and had purchased large quantities of 7mm ammunition from Remington UMC so ammo was available. For the minehunting newly made Eley ammunition was issued, presumably because this had spitzer (pointed) bullets that were better for penetration of the mines. (The Remington ammo was round nosed)

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

The only Mausers that I know of that were used in WWI were those seized from Chilian and Brazilian battleships building in Britain in 1914. These were issued to minesweepers and armed trawlers for mine hunting.

Regards

TonyE

What were they doing in battleships under construction? I thought the Brazilian battleship was sold to Turkey in 1913 before completion and then seized by Britain when WW1 broke out in any case. Chile's battleship under construction was purchased by Britain by agreement and not seized. Is this story about the source of the rifles correct? You wouldn't expect to put rifles on board until at least the end of fitting out. In both instances both ships were then already in British hands.

[T8HANTS]

I believe in the history of the Londion Rifle Brigade it is written that the second battalion was initially equiped with captured Boer mausers that were in the possession of one of the better public schools. My copy is packed away so I cannot quote chapter and verse.

G

[Sepoy]

I have seen photographs of Boers smashing their rifles and carbines whilst in the process of surrendering. May be this led to many being burnt, but others became popular war trophies due to the Boer habit of engraving the woodwork.

When I was involved in the gun trade in the 1980s and 90s, un-licenced Boer Mauser trophies turned up in lofts and shed on a regular basis.

I have attached a photograph of a Boer Carbine, with nicely engraved woodwork, which had been "surrendered" and collected as a "trophy" (just the right size to fit into a Kit Bag). I really like the contemporary crude repair using brass screws and plates.

Did any Volunteer Training Corps units arm themselves with Boer Mausers??

Sepoy

[T8HANTS]

Forgot to mention I have a very nice B series Boer mauser myself

[TonyE]

What were they doing in battleships under construction? I thought the Brazilian battleship was sold to Turkey in 1913 before completion and then seized by Britain when WW1 broke out in any case. Chile's battleship under construction was purchased by Britain by agreement and not seized. Is this story about the source of the rifles correct? You wouldn't expect to put rifles on board until at least the end of fitting out. In both instances both ships were then already in British hands.

I think there might be confusion here between the purchase of the two Chilean battleships Constitution and Libertad by Britain in 1903 (to become HMS Swiftsure and Triumph) and the seizure of the Almirante Lattore and Almirante Cochrane in August 1914.

The reason for the small arms being aboard was that the ships were virtualy complete and ready to be handed over. In fact the Almirante Lattore was commissioned into the Royal Navy only a month later on 9th September 1914 as HMS Canada. The information is in the Admiralty Technical Index CB 1515 published in 1920.

The Brazilian battleship Rio de Janiero was sold to the Turks in December 1913 when almost complete (she had been launched on 21st January 1913) and she was seized on 1st August 1914 by a company of Sherwood Foresters. Whether the Brazilian small arms were still on board or had been removed at the time of the sale but were still in the hands of Armstrongs is not clear, but they were available and handed over to the Royal Navy.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

I think there might be confusion here between the purchase of the two Chilean battleships Constitution and Libertad by Britain in 1903 (to become HMS Swiftsure and Triumph) and the seizure of the Almirante Lattore and Almirante Cochrane in August 1914.

The reason for the small arms being aboard was that the ships were virtualy complete and ready to be handed over. In fact the Almirante Lattore was commissioned into the Royal Navy only a month later on 9th September 1914 as HMS Canada. The information is in the Admiralty Technical Index CB 1515 published in 1920.

The Brazilian battleship Rio de Janiero was sold to the Turks in December 1913 when almost complete (she had been launched on 21st January 1913) and she was seized on 1st August 1914 by a company of Sherwood Foresters. Whether the Brazilian small arms were still on board or had been removed at the time of the sale but were still in the hands of Armstrongs is not clear, but they were available and handed over to the Royal Navy.

Regards

TonyE

No Chilean battleship was seized - Britain was too anxious to maintain good relationships with Chile - as I said an agreed purchase was made before the ship was handed over to Chile. A seizure would have been illegal and an act of war. The Brazilian Battleship Rio de Janeiro was still under construction in September 1913 when put up for sale (and construction halted) and was far from complete as there had been consideration of a complete rearmament which had slowed matters down. She underwent a refit when bought by the Turks. At the end of July only a few Turkish officers and a smattering of Turkish seamen were on board for the sea trials. The bulk of her officers and crew and any rifles or other small arms were still on the Turkish steamer Neshid Pasha awaiting the official hand over on 2nd August when on 1st August 1914 a detachment of Sherwood Foresters came marching through the dockyard gates with fixed bayonets and boarded the battleship. Those Turkish officers and seamen who were on board were unarmed and offered no resistance and were put aboard the Neshid Pasha which was allowed to depart. The Admiralty (in the person of Churchill) having planned this probably as early as June 1914 would have been crazy to have allowed any Turkish small arms to be on board.

BTW what about the 9,000 Mausers already with the UVF in Northern Ireland? As the UVF men effectively became part of the New Armies some of these and their ammunition became available.

[dman]

TonyE

Was mot aware of the Royal Navy use of Remington rifles

Were they of the single shot "rolling block" style" ? When were they purchased?

Also was the Royal Navy forced to hand over their Lee Enfield rifles to the army like the German Navy were forced to give up their Gew 98, being replaced by captured French/Russian rifles?

Thanx

[5thBatt]

Here's what NZ did with our Boer war trophy rifles, had a SAT MH a few years back but sold it to help fund my Lee Enfield collecting.

http://www.nzahaa.org.nz/art_satr.asp

So if anyone has a NZ S.A.T. marked rifle, please forward the details to the NZAHAA.

[TonyE]

TonyE

Was mot aware of the Royal Navy use of Remington rifles

Were they of the single shot "rolling block" style" ? When were they purchased?

Also was the Royal Navy forced to hand over their Lee Enfield rifles to the army like the German Navy were forced to give up their Gew 98, being replaced by captured French/Russian rifles?

Thanx

Yes, these were the single shot Roling Blocks.

The Admiralty sent Sir Trevor Dawson, Deputy Chairman of Vickers, to America in early 1915 with instructions to buy everything he could in the way of rifles. He purchased 20,000 Winchester Model 1892 rifles (.44-40 calibre), 5,000 Winchester Model 1894 (.30-30 calibre), 4,000 Remington Model 14 1/2 rifles (.44-40 calibre) and 4,500 Remington Rolling Blocks (7mm calibre). He also bought large amounts of ammunition for these.

The Rolling Blocks were Model 1901 "transitional" type, sharing some features with the earlier model 1897. There was an additional order for 1,800 RBs but no delivery date is given so it is uncertain if they actually arrived. Dawson also declined several thousand second hand RB carbines. They were not a success and most were relegated to DP status and used for training.

With respect to the navy's Lee Enfields, Churchill issued a memorandum in November 1914 ordering them to be surrendered to the army and replaced by Japanese Arisakas.

THE RIFLE SHORTAGE

The following course is to be adopted:-

1. As soon as the War Office are ready to hand over the 50,000 Japanese rifles, the whole of the rifles, long and short, whether used by sailors or marines, on board H.M. Ships at home and abroad, will be collected and brought on shore to the Royal Naval Ordnance Depots. The Japanese rifles will be issued to all ships in their place; there will be no rifles of any sort on board H.M. Ships other than Japanese.

2 From the British rifles surrendered by the Fleet, 15,000 short .303 charger loading rifles will be set aside for the Royal Naval Division, i.e. one rifle for each of 12,000 men, plus 25 per cent for reserve and training. All the rifles now possessed by the Royal Naval Division will then be surrendered to the Ordnance depots for the 15,000 short British .303, and no more.

3. There will then be handed over to the Army 57,800 rifles, of which 9,000 will be short charger loading.

4. The 50,000 Japanese rifles will then be issued to the Fleet in the following proportion:-

One rifle for each marine and one rifle for every five sailors, ships on foreign service receiving one rifle for every three sailors. The rest of the rifles will be issued as required to trawlers and auxiliaries, and kept in the Royal Marine and Royal Naval Ordnance depots.

The Fleet will thus be completely re-armed with the 50,000 Japanese rifles, and the Royal Naval Division with .303 short rifles ready for field service.

Let me now have calculations worked out on this basis; and draft a letter accordingly to the War Office.

November 25, 1914 W.S.C.

Regards

TonyE

[TonyE]

No Chilean battleship was seized - Britain was too anxious to maintain good relationships with Chile - as I said an agreed purchase was made before the ship was handed over to Chile. A seizure would have been illegal and an act of war. The Brazilian Battleship Rio de Janeiro was still under construction in September 1913 when put up for sale (and construction halted) and was far from complete as there had been consideration of a complete rearmament which had slowed matters down. She underwent a refit when bought by the Turks. At the end of July only a few Turkish officers and a smattering of Turkish seamen were on board for the sea trials. The bulk of her officers and crew and any rifles or other small arms were still on the Turkish steamer Neshid Pasha awaiting the official hand over on 2nd August when on 1st August 1914 a detachment of Sherwood Foresters came marching through the dockyard gates with fixed bayonets and boarded the battleship. Those Turkish officers and seamen who were on board were unarmed and offered no resistance and were put aboard the Neshid Pasha which was allowed to depart. The Admiralty (in the person of Churchill) having planned this probably as early as June 1914 would have been crazy to have allowed any Turkish small arms to be on board.

BTW what about the 9,000 Mausers already with the UVF in Northern Ireland? As the UVF men effectively became part of the New Armies some of these and their ammunition became available.

The UVF Mausers are an interesting question. i have found no record of these being used, although the Vetterli rifles held by the UVF are documented as being handed over to the army. I don't know what happened to the mausers.

With regards to the small arms for the warships, the records state that 60 Browning pistols were purchased by the Admiralty from the trade, "These were originally intended fro Chiian warships building in Britain".

This is an error (one of several in C.B.1515), as the Chilian service pistol was the Model 1912 Steyr. What is much more likely is that these had been ordered by Vickers for the Turkish ship as the Model 1903 Browning was the Turkish service pistol. They were accepted at Enfield and presumably issued to the Royal Navy, but that is not known for certain. There is an example in the National Firearms Centre at the Royal Armouries (Pictures of which below) and I know of two further Enfield marked examples in private hands. The pistols would have been purchased from lePersonne & Co. who were the London agents for Fabrique Nationale who made the Brownings.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

I have seen that Mauser ammunition was handed over to the British Army by the UVF which might suggest that so were some rifles.

[4thGordons]

"The Admiralty sent Sir Trevor Dawson, Deputy Chairman of Vickers, to America in early 1915 with instructions to buy everything he could in the way of rifles. He purchased 20,000 Winchester Model 1892 rifles (.44-40 calibre), 5,000 Winchester Model 1894 (.30-30 calibre), 4,000 Remington Model 14 1/2 rifles (.44-40 calibre) and 4,500 Remington Rolling Blocks (7mm calibre). He also bought large amounts of ammunition for these.

The Rolling Blocks were Model 1901 "transitional" type, sharing some features with the earlier model 1897. "

Ahha.......so four new types for me to look for! [ ]

Thanks for the info on the Rolling Blocks - I did not know which variant they were (and there appear to be numerous!)

Chris

[colfi]

Hi All

I have a RN marked Remington Rolling Block rifle in 7 mm Mauser cal, it's a 1905 dated model (1901 type rebuild), I also have 4 1896 made Ludwig loewe Boer Mauser, a lot of these Mauser came to Australia and were sent to all the capital city museums to be displayed, over the years the museums sold ot traded them off. This is how I came to my ones. If anyone has a 'carved' Boer rifle with a name on it I have a copy of the Bugrerstraap (electoral role) of 1900. A lot of the Burgers names from the rifles are listed there.

All four of my rifles came from Hospital guards and according to the records in the SA museum in Pretoria, they were all over 60 years of age at the end of the war. All my rifles are in near mint condition and show very little wear, this runs with the theory that they were 'dads army' type issue and weren't used by Burgers on commando. Sadly, I have only one I can link positively to a Burger who was part of a Commando unit. I can photo copy the list or search it for a name if anyone is interested. The list shows full names and addresses/farm locations.