I have just received a most distressing picture of a neglected plot

[keithfazzani]

I agree Keith

[W.J.Caughey]

Diane, i think a simple phone call to commission would help and put your mine at rest like mine, and they would get in touch with the appropriate authority's.

Example

I believe this was the work of the CWGC UK Area rep had done, and believe they would be glad of you bringing the matter to there attention.

I know the commission asked Belfast City Council to undertake a exercise to map out all the common graves which have war casualties buried in them.

The staff at Belfast City Cemetery tidied these graves.

Belfast City Council reply

The Commission has confirmed a number of graves (24) of servicemen within our facilities have been afforded war grave status. (10 at the City Cemetery,14 at Glenalina) Some of the graves are currently unmarked or have family memorials on them. The commission is asking permission to erect (or lay recumbent where a family memorial exists) a standard war pattern type headstone at the head of each of these graves.

The commission is asking permission to erect (or lay recumbent where a family memorial exists) a standard war pattern type headstone at the head of each of these graves.

I believe some of the graves will have a marker like Nurse Twaddel who is buried at Carnmoney Cemetery.

Walter

[Seadog]

For my own clarification this is simply how I understand the situation. For the sake of example the following refers to WW1 war dead.

In the UK where a CWGC headstone is erected on a private family grave in a civil cemetery the CWGC undertakes to maintain that stone in a reasonable condition but has no responsibility for the maintenance or repair of the actual physical private grave and its associated stonework, private headstone if present and/or memorial.

In respect of the war dead buried in a private grave which does not have a formal CWGC headstone erected upon it then in these cases the CWGC bears no responsibility whatsoever for the maintenance of repair of the grave.

This is my present understanding of the position regarding private graves in the UK which contain the remains of a casualty of WW1 who is recorded on the CWGC Debt of Honour database.

If this understanding is felt to be incorrect I will be obliged if factual evidence is produced to support that contention as I cannot find same on the CWGC website.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

I htink you are broadly correct, but see Terry Denham's posr 14 in this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86234&st=0entry802483 . This I think would still be the normal practice, but reasonable attempts must first me made to contact the family that owns a grave plot.

Keith

[Seadog]

Thanks for the reply Keith, so I am guessing that in the case of private graves with no CWGC headstone it would be pointless in reporting the condition of these to the CWGC as they have no responsibility for repair and maintenance of the said grave. On the subject of the CWGC erecting a new formal headstone on a private grave that is another matter altogether and if the request on their website is anything to go by selection is quite arbitrary bearing in mind that there must be a considerable number of such graves in the UK that fall into the category mentioned. Many of these will be in the same state as those pictured here in which case it would appear that the erection of a CWGC headstone would not be a practical proposition anyway.

Norman

[keithmroberts]

My impression is that if an original inscription on a family grave is no longer clear or legible, then they would seek to add a new marker. If they cannot do that for any reason, which could include the redevelopment of a closed cemetery for example, they the CWGC would have to find an alternative commemoration, which might well be a special memorial if the cemetery remained open, (I have seen this in a churchyard where original family markers were removed to create open space), or recording the name on a memorial elsewhere. Presumably in the latter case they would consider the available options, and the name could end up being commemorated at Brookwood.

Keith

[Sandie Hayes]

I don't know where you'd start but the CWGC will erect a headstone. Over the last 10 years I know of at least 2 men that have had a new CWGC headstone in Widnes Cemetery, though 1 was an unmarked grave.

[BereniceUK]

For my own clarification this is simply how I understand the situation. For the sake of example the following refers to WW1 war dead.

In the UK where a CWGC headstone is erected on a private family grave in a civil cemetery the CWGC undertakes to maintain that stone in a reasonable condition but has no responsibility for the maintenance or repair of the actual physical private grave and its associated stonework, private headstone if present and/or memorial.

In respect of the war dead buried in a private grave which does not have a formal CWGC headstone erected upon it then in these cases the CWGC bears no responsibility whatsoever for the maintenance of repair of the grave.

This is my present understanding of the position regarding private graves in the UK which contain the remains of a casualty of WW1 who is recorded on the CWGC Debt of Honour database.

If this understanding is felt to be incorrect I will be obliged if factual evidence is produced to support that contention as I cannot find same on the CWGC website.

Norman

which would explain this....

[Phil Evans]

The criteria for the non-commemorated men that I have put through in recent years has been that they have to be identifiable. Therefore the two in unmarked graves are currently awaiting CWGC headstones, but for the other two, the existing headstones were considered acceptable, even though I would consider that one of them was borderline.

As far as existing private graves are concerned, I think there are several factors that lead to what some of us would consider the unacceptable condition of graves. The CWGC has limited resources, both to carry out the inspections and to meet the demand for replacement headstones. This is obviously not helped by their not being able, under their remit, to interfere with private memorials etc. and the bureaucracy involved in erecting a CWGC headstone on a privately owned grave. The attitude of the authority owning the cemetery also has a large part to play, both in their maintenance regime and their relationship with the CWGC.

Phil

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

For the CWGC to do anything about it surely it has to be recognised as a war casualty. Is the man who died on the roll of honour of the CWGC, if he is then there may be a case for maintance , if he is not why not .

Was his death a direct result of the war, can evidence be produced for this eg from the burnt records on ancestry. What does it say on the dearh certificate?or in any artical in the local press. For the CWGC to recognise the grave then the relevant documents have to satisfy a number of committees for them to adopt it.

Richard

[W.J.Caughey]

Gnr Harry Price is commemorated on CWGC, it seems he was still a serving soldier at time of death.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/404352/PRICE,%20HARRY

Walter

Edit

[Seadog]

There is an excellent example of what we are discussing posted by Bernice in post 33. The CWGC of course are not responsible for the condition of the private grave but it is good to see the formal headstone in-situ which ensures that we as a nation mark as a sign of respect the graves of those who gave their lives for us.

There is obviously a new initiative by the CWGC to seek permission to erect a formal headstone on certain graves such as those detailed on the their website and as per the example posted by our member in post 29, this must be a huge task and I wonder just what criteria the CWGC are using when selecting the cemeteries/graves as I reiterate very little info on this is available from them, certainly as far as the website is concerned. That then leaves us with the graves in the state as depicted by the images on this thread which have no CWGC headstone and will with time disappear completely.

Is it not a fact that that these graves demand a more radical approach in that perhaps a simple marker could be designed and mass-produced in metal or even a suitable plastic which would bear very basic details maybe even just War Grave – The Great War plus the CWGC contact details. Include a suitable spike in the design and just insert this as near to the grave as is possible.

Regards

Norman

[keithmroberts]

The approach these days seems to involve a Gallipoli style marker rather than a vertical stone, but it may be a question of the condition of a particular grave. I believe that they are committed to ensuring that the name of a war casualty is clear, so a quicker and no doubt less expensive approach is ruled out.

They have a regime to examine all war graves, although when you see the few extreme cases of neglect one wonders occasionally, and as I suggested earlier, they probably have a substantial list to work through. If they are maintaining the tradition of treating all war dead equally, I would expect that the list would be addressed in date order from the time when it was decided that a private memorial had ceased to meet an acceptable standard. The process of trying to contact the owners of graves and dealing with cemetery owners obviously takes varying amounts of time and orders for work will only be issued once the process has been concluded.

Keith

[Seadog]

The sad fact is Keith that if nothing is done to at least indicate that the dilapidated private graves include a war casually then we must accept that this possibly very large number of our war dead will lack any form of recognition in the physical sense albeit they will of course be recorded on the Debt of Honour. I did say that my suggestion was radical in terms of the CWGC accepted way of working but in my view such a solution to this problem which is a concern to many forum members is a simple way to ensure that these graves are at least marked and recognizable as such by visitors to the civil cemeteries. For the reasons detailed in previous posts there is no way that the CWGC will even if they had all the permissions required, be able to erect a formal headstone on graves in the condition depicted here.

Norman

[Peter Bennett]

I brought up this subject a couple of years ago when I attended a presentation by the CWGC in Warwick Library.

As confirmed in some posts on this thread, the CWGC will try and establish who owns the grave and whether they can be contacted. All queries and issues regarding War Graves in the UK should be directed to the Leamington Spa office.

They will not of course repair a broken grave but they will either erect a CWGC commemoration or arrange to to have any fallen headstone raised and have any lettering refurbished so that it can be read. I can supply many examples via a PM if anyone would like this.

For an individual to try and contact grave owners of their own volition, some cemeteries and local authorities will not divulge this information. All issues regarding war graves in the UK should be directed to the Leamington Spa Office

Here is a good example of a satisfactory result.

KING, G Private 448132 12/03/1917 40 Canadian Machine Gun Corps. Plot F. 121. WANDSWORTH (STREATHAM) CEMETERY

In May 2009 I was contacted for advice by a gentleman who has taken many photos in the London area to support the Australian, Canadian and South African war grave projects. He had visited the above cemetery and following the CWGC location instructions found a badly broken family grave to a family named King, however there was no visible commemoration to a George King.

I contacted the cemetery manager who was extremely helpful and said he would seek out the plot according to the records held. He came back to me and confirmed that the plot number F.121. on the CWGC records was the correct one but that the grave they described in proximity to a Commission Headstone was the wrong plot location and therefore the wrong King family. He further confirmed that Pte King was buried along with his parents and brother but there was no visible headstone whatsoever. I commend him for his kind cooperation.

Armed with this information I wrote to the CWGC explaining the situation, but because this was a privately owned grave there is a protocol which must be followed to establish who, if anyone is the current owner(s) of the grave and obtain permission to erect a CWGC commemoration. It was December 2010 before I received an update stating that the last part of the process was that local council had to confirm their consent to a commemoration being installed. Only then could a headstone be ordered and that there was a minimum 22 month waiting list.

On April 9th 2013 I received a confirmation that the headstone had been installed and contacted GWF Forum Member Judy Rieck in the hope that she could visit the cemetery and complete the task. Judy and Trevor visited and took the photographs

After nearly four years of perseverance I felt a great relief that at last George King had his own unique and CWGC correct commemoration It may have been many years since his family grave fell into disrepair but there must have been a headstone in the 1920s but the family may have died out as happened to so many. I feel very humble and privileged to have played my small part.

[judy7007]

Well done Peter. You did indeed persevere over an extended period resulting in Private King now having a CWGC headstone and the commemoration he deserves. Excellent work.

Judy

[Seadog]

Superb research and an excellent result

Norman

[Bardess]

... and that's where this thread should possibly end - on a positive note. Well done Peter. Determination and perseverance paid off.

Actually, for completeness, can anyone add the contact details for the Leamington Spa office?

[spof]

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Jenton Road

Sydenham

Leamington Spa

Warwickshire CV31 1XS

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 (0) 1926 330137

Fax: +44 (0) 1926 456595

http://www.cwgc.org/about-us/offices.aspx

[keithmroberts]

Locked at the request of the original poster.

Keith