a german fokker D-7 with a jewish star of david aside the german cross

[tsahal]

i found this pic on e-bay, can somebody explain please?

[spconnolly007]

Explain what? There were a number of Jewish pilots in WW1 http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/frankl.php

Regards,

Sean.

[Seadog]

The hat on the guy in the left does not look like regulation headgear and the Star of David is very large plus being repeated on the upper fuselage, could this be postwar and not the German Air Force, just a thought.

Norman

[martin_sole]

There are a few threads on this topic in other forums. Suggestion is that it's the preferred symbol for pilot Adolf Auer. The six pointed star might be without any religious inference. Auer was not Jewish.

[Seadog]

Martin is there a confirmed image of the a/c flown by Auer to compare with this photo?

Norman

[martin_sole]

The best I can find is a hotch-potch of stuff from aviation websites, nothing 100%

A picture labelled Jagdstaffel 40, which IDs Auer as second from left. If you squint and use your imagination it could be the fella centre frame in tsahal's pic

http://www.buddecke.de/jasta40.htm

A modern identification poster of the machines in JaSta 40 showing one with six pointed star

http://www.juniorgeneral.org/JClick.php?UID=7694

Another site that IDs a similarly marked captured machine as Auer's

http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Arts/Art4966.htm

Hardly primary sources tho

[tsahal]

http://www.fresh.co....ad.php?t=559987 wow thank you so much...i did some research and i found a topic on the israeli army forum "fresh" exactly about this matter..there is 3 ideas there why the star of david was on the fokker,

1. adolf auer was tising his fellow pilot herman goering because he didnt like him for being antisemite over other jewish pilots..(adolf auer was not jewish).

2.adolf auer did that as a homage to a fellow jewish pilot..

3.the fokker is in service of another country..(captured?)http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/wo...entify-please1/

[tsahal]

what norman noticed about the "australian" hat may explain why the fokker is a captured plane?

[Seadog]

I am no expert on this subject but the mode of dress on the first man does not seem to fit the German Air Force, but I could of course be wrong. I suppose that this particular photo may depict the aircraft after being captured or after the war.

Regards

Norman

[martin_sole]

Idea #4 is that it's just a symbol that Auer liked the look of, and that it has no connection with Judaism.

[centurion]

D VIIs were used post war by a number of air forces including Lithuania, the Hungarian Communists, Dutch. The USA had some for evaluation Fokker rescued a train load in 1918 and resold them and KuK plants who made them under licence also flogged off a number at the end of the war. Some ended up with stunt pilots and film companies. The last one in service was with the Lithuanian Air Force in 1940.

[Andrew Upton]

what norman noticed about the "australian" hat may explain why the fokker is a captured plane?

I am no expert on this subject but the mode of dress on the first man does not seem to fit the German Air Force, but I could of course be wrong. I suppose that this particular photo may depict the aircraft after being captured or after the war.

I believe the two men standing by the plane to be wearing US Army uniform, the one on the viewers left in the campaign hat, the one on the right in the side cap. This would fit with the leather jerkins, puttees and remainder of the uniform visible, and add weight to the suggestion this was taken after the plane was captured.

[Jasta72s]

Indeed, the soldiers ahead of the Fokker D.VII in the first photograph are not Germans and the aircraft displays a six-pointed star therefore I suggest that we see a picture of the captured Fokker D.VII 4043/18 which was piloted by Ltn Adolf Auer (Jasta 40s) and downed by Capt F O Soden (No 41 Sqn, SE5a no. F5545) on 28 October 1918 near Ooteghem near Sterhoek. G-number was G/2/27.

In a letter after WWII Staffelführer Carl Degelow had drawn the individual markings of his pilots. Ltn. Auer´s machine(s) carried the six-pointed star, the two Jewish pilots of the unit had a heart (Rosenstein) and piggy from behind (Raab) as individual marking. Don´t remember if there was any story connected with Auer´s star. Maybe a question for Peter Kilduff who wrote about Degelow and Jasta 40.

However, if one of the afore (via link) displayed pictures should be right then the aircraft captured by Soden looked different to the first picture in this thread. If this is correct then I suggest another potential solution:

There was another machine with a Star of David in Jasta 12 which was probably flown by Vfw. Otto Rosenfeld (with 13 air victories), in fact a Jew if I recall correct. However, he was KIA on 5 July 1918 and I am not aware of any G-number or crash picture. It is interesting to note that "Above the Lines" reported Lt Sumner Sewell (95th Aero Squadron) as probably victor. He claimed a fighter near Coincy, although it was not confirmed.

This would fit the "American look" of the soldiers but one can wonder if there were more machines with six-pointed stars indicating German pilots with Jewish roots - or not.

[martin_sole]

Is the man centre frame Cpt. Soden? He has proprietorial air to him

[egbert]

I think the insignia has nothing to do with Jewish religion. Wikipedia says for a hexagram ,amongst other suggestions: "Some meanings which involve particular variations of this symbol are supported by the IRM, such as "well being" (where "swastika" means "well being" in Sanskrit) and "infinity in time" (as Hindus see the swastika as a symbol for "eternal" cycles). In Raelism, the upper and lower triangles represent "as above, so below", which refers to either the likeness between the creators' past and created's future or the repeating fractal hierarchical structure in the universe. "As above so below" is also well known in Wicca as the last statement of an invocation or ritual in order to bring the change of events from the upper world to the lower world (our world)."

I believe it is a personal signage by the pilot as was custom in WW1, more philosophical than religion-bound

[centurion]

Given the uniforms might I suggest that this aircraft belongs to U.S. Marine Corps, 3rd Squadron based at Quantico which in 1920 was equipped with Fokker DVIIs purchased from a Herr A Fokker of the Netherlands (not a temporary German citizen at all, definitely a mistake ) .

[centurion]

Just to further add possibilities, the US Army in the early 20s had over 100 Fokker D VII s on its books (not to

mention about 30 V28 - a 2 seater version). As well as those forces I've already mentioned the Swiss Belgian & Turkish also flew them post war.

And the Czechoslovakian airforce flew one or two captured from the Hungarians in 1919. Photo show the Soviets with at least one (although this may have been acquired when the Baltic states were annexed in 1940)

[martin_sole]

These other pics from the same series would suggest that it's a German plane?

[Jasta72s]

I think it is obvious that we can outrule any "purchased Dutch" or "new national states in the East" Fokkers. It is especially hard to believe that Fokker would sell an airplane to the U.S.A. after painting a German Balkenkreuz and a six-pointed star on the airframe.

This is a German airplane either captured before the EOW OR left in the field or handed over according to the conditions of the armistice to the Allieds after the war. The U.S. soldiers on the picture make sense - in 1918. Enough said.