British/Canadian S&W .455 H-E Pistol

[varifleman]

Here are a few photos of British/Canadian proofed S&W .455 H-E revolver serial number 17464. It has Canadian C/Broad Arrow and C/Broad Arrow/N (assume that's a Navy property mark) in addition to the British proof and property marks. Any ideas about the unit designator on the backstrap (1 H R 2)?

[TonyE]

Other than saying it is a Mark II, first accepted at Enfield, I cannot help with the unit marking unfortunately.

An interestingly marked pistol thouigh.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Given the Canadian connection (and depending on the accuracy of the armourer doing the marking) it could possibly indicate a number of different Canadian based units, including the following Infantry regiments :- Hull Regiment, Huron Regiment, Halton Rifles, Haldimand Rifles, Halifax Rifles etc. with the former being the most likely if going strictly by the book.

Cheers, S>S

[varifleman]

Given the Canadian connection (and depending on the accuracy of the armourer doing the marking) it could possibly indicate a number of different Canadian based units, including the following Infantry regiments :- Hull Regiment, Huron Regiment, Halton Rifles, Haldimand Rifles, Halifax Rifles etc. with the former being the most likely if going strictly by the book.

Cheers, S>S

Thanks Old Sweats; I'll do some further digging. Cheers

[RangeRover]

Hi Vari...

Can't see the C-arrow-N marking but that marking would indicate Royal Canadian Navy Service, and just to muddy the waters a bit, the 1 HR 2 marking may not be Canadian, but rather British.

I base this on some research I did on my Colt New Service in .455 that features the same markings set (absent any regimental stamping) - pictured below.

Clive Law, in his Canadian Military Handguns 1855-1985 (pg. 43) states “The Royal Canadian Navy, mostly because they fought as self-contained units within which pistols were considered low priority, were issued .455 cal. and .45 cal. pistols. These pistols were usually surplus left over from the First World War.”

The Canadian War Museum, which has an identically-marked Colt to mine states in the entry for the Colt that these revolvers (and perhaps one could perhaps assume some S&W revolvers) were used by the British military in the Great War, were transferred to the Canadian Army inter-war, where they would have picked up the C-broad arrow, and then used by the RCN in the Second World War, gaining the C-arrow-N. So...what British unit might fit to the 1HR 2 marking?

By the way, Clive Law's book lists the serial numbers of some S&W HE revolvers in .455 - listed as having been in stores with the Royal Canadian Navy Armament Depot in Esquimalt, B.C. on Canada's west coast in October of 1944. If you post, or message me, the serial number, I'll see if it is listed (though Law states the navy records are far from complete).

The proof markings on the left side, shown in greater detail below, show British acceptance proofs. The right side shows the Canadian, C-broad arrow, stamp. Back on the left side, the frame is marked C-arrow-N twice and the cylinder marked the same way as well.

[shippingsteel]

By the way, Clive Law's book lists the serial numbers of some S&W HE revolvers in .455 - listed as having been in stores with the Royal Canadian Navy Armament Depot in Esquimalt, B.C. on Canada's west coast in October of 1944. If you post, or message me, the serial number, I'll see if it is listed (though Law states the navy records are far from complete).

As already indicated in the OP, the serial number for this revolver is #17464

I am not aware of any British unit that would correspond with the letters HR. The Canadian Hull Regiment history would seem to indicate an interwar period marking.

Cheers, S>S

[RangeRover]

Well...that's what I get for posting at the end of a long week. I skipped right over that. That s/n is not in the book but, as mentioned, Law admits the records are incomplete.

Not many Canadian navy-marked arms out there at any rate, so a nice acquisition.

[varifleman]

Well...that's what I get for posting at the end of a long week. I skipped right over that. That s/n is not in the book but, as mentioned, Law admits the records are incomplete.

Not many Canadian navy-marked arms out there at any rate, so a nice acquisition.

Hello menof thenorth: I've exceeded my limit for posting images but my pistols has the same C^N marks on the cylider and on the frame right below the cylinder. Cheers

[varifleman]

According to the Smith & Wesson letter this revolver was shipped from their factory on September 23, 1915 and delivered to Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Company, New York City, agents for the British Government.

[deadin]

I have to agree with the theory that the S&W under question was returned to Canada as surplus sometime after WW1.

There were some 14,500 S&W .455 Mk II,2nd Models manufactured for Canada during the 1st War. I have owned several and

none caried British proofs. Remington was the receiving agent for the Empire during the war and forwarded the guns onto whever they were destined for.

I've always assumed that those going to Britain were later proofed at Enfield or elsewhere. Those going to Canada were not.

BTW, that's the first Canadian Navy I've seen. They are not common.....

[TonyE]

Yes, the British orders were proofed at RSAF Enfield on arrival and inspection in the UK.

Remington acted as the purchasing agent for these pistols as you say (although J.P.Morgan took over as the purchasing agent for the rest of the war). The price was £3. 2. 6 each ($14.50) f.o.b. New York and the British government paid Remington 1 shilling each for freight plus 5% buyer's commission.

Regards

TonyE

[deadin]

Tony,

I was unaware of the J.P. Morgan bit... Do you lnow when during the war he became the purchasing agent?

My main interest is in the 1st Model .455 MkII's. (Triple Lock) and they all letter to Remington in the shipping records.

I don't know that I have ever heard of a 2nd Model lettering to Morgan. The books show the production of the 2nd Model

as ending in 1917, so is it possible he took over the job after the completion of the S&W contract?

Dean

[TonyE]

J.P.Morgan is the merchant bank of Wall Street fame. They acted as the purchasing agent for the British government in both World Wars.

I believe they were appointed when the Ministry of Munitions was formed under Lloyd George in April 1915 but I need to confirm that. I am awaiting some papers from the J.P.Morgan archives that should resolve that.

After that date the S & W orders were placed with J.P.Morgan who then placed them with Remington who in turn ordered them from S & W. Why such a convoluted process went on is uncertain, but I suspect that as the original orders had been placed with Remington and the British government was keen for them to accept orders for the Pattern 14 rifle they did not want to upset them. That explains why all the Triple Lock orders are assigned to Remington.

Regards

TonyE

[deadin]

It soundslike possibly all of the S&W orders went through Remington even though they originated with Morgan.

That might explain why I've never heard of a S&W .455 being shipped to Morgan.

[varifleman]

Thanks to all who added such valuable information about this pistol and the contract particulars.