Machine Guns and the location of units on the SS River Clyde

[oak]

Pals,

I have cross referenced a number of sources and have come up with the following information on the number of machine guns and the location of particular units aboard the SS River Clyde on 25 April 1915.

Eleven Maxim machine guns manned by the men of No. 3 Armoured Car Squadron, Royal Naval Air Service, under the command of Lieutenant-Commander Josiah Wedgwood. (sources: Letter dated 25 April 1915 from Wedgwood to Churchill IWM 13473 05/63/1, Midshipman George Drewry in a letter to his father dated 12 May 1915 IWM 10946 P216, "The War in the Air: Volume Two by H.A. Jones. Note: Edward Unwin, also in IWM 13473 05/63/1, says that there were twelve guns, but his account seems to have been written sometime afterwards. One could reasonably presume that Wedgwood, who commanded the guns and wrote on the day of the V Beach landing, gave the correct number.)

Under Wedgwood's direction, RNAS mechanics put steel-plate and sandbag protection in place around the machine-gun positions and along the whole of the upper deck and bridges. According to Wedgwood "our mechanics built casemates, armed her with maxim guns, and lined her bridges with boiler plate and leaky sand-bags." (source: "With Machine Guns in Gallipoli" by Lieutenant-Commander Josiah Wedgwood, M.P. D.S.O.)

According to the regimental history of the Royal Munster Fusiliers in No. 1 Hold (Upper Deck) were Battalion Headquarters 1st Royal Munster Fusiliers, four Vickers machine guns and X, Y and Z Companies 1st Royal Munster Fusiliers. The machine guns were commanded by Second Lieutenant Norman Dewhurst. In his memoirs he said that he "had [his] machine guns going all the time in an attempt to give covering fire." Though, unfortunately, he does not say where the guns were stationed, he names a Munsters officer who he said was killed before his eyes "as he passed through the exit port on to the gangway." As the officer belonged to a company that exited on the starboard

side of the ship, Dewhurst must have been on the starboard side. I assume he would have kept his guns in proximity to him, in order to exercise command. (sources: "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers 1861-1922" by Captain S. McCance, "Norman Dewhurst M.C." by H.J. Edmonds and the excellent website "The Long Long Trail.") My thanks to Kate Wills of this parish for the very extended loan of Dewhurst's memoirs.

According to "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers" No. 1 Hold (Lower Deck) held W Company Royal Munster Fusiliers and W Company Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

According to "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers," in No. 2 Hold were Battalion Headquarters 2nd Hampshire Regiment, four Vickers machine guns, Y and Z Companies 2nd Hampshire Regiment and 1st (West Riding) Field Company, Royal Engineers. The Hampshire's machine guns were commanded by Captain George Rosser (promoted from Lieutenant 13 April 1915.) According to the regimental history they also gave supporting fire. (sources: "The Royal Hampshire Regiment 1914-1918 by C.T. Atkinson," "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers 1861-1922" by Captain S. McCance, the excellent website "The Long Long Trail" and research by me.)

Unfortunately, given that "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers" is the only regimental history that gives the location of particular units on the ship, it appears to have given the wrong location for the Hampshires. Both "The Royal Hampshire Regiment 1914-1918" and an account by Second Lieutenant Reginald Gillett, No. 13 Platoon, Z Company, 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regiment (IWM 929 99/62/1) put the Hampshires in Hold No. 3. So, further research on the location of units on the River Clyde is needed.

As a matter of interest, according to the "History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers," No. 3 and No. 4 Holds (in the aft of the ship) held two sub-divisions of 89th Field Ambulance, 1st London Division Signal Company and No. 13 Platoon, Anson Battalion, Royal Naval Division. (additional research by me.)

I hope that Gallipolian Pals may find this information of interest.

Philip

[michaeldr]

Certainly of interest Philip; thanks for sharing

First thoughts

to illustrate the reference to Dewhurst, see this photograph showing the sally-ports on the starboard side http://commons.wikim...iver_Clyde2.jpg

Would it be valid to make the following assumptions?

After the initial shock of the hot reception, wouldn't men try and shorten their exposure time to the enemy's fire and thus have preferred to leave the relative safety of the iron hull via the forward port, and not the second or middle one?

Would the Munster machine guns have been firing through the same port which their men were leaving by?

Do the above suggest that the Munster's guns were using the second/middle port? (Though I doubt that one port had room for four machine guns; possibly two at the most I would have thought)

Or, is the above too simplistic? Were the guns set up only after it became clear that the infantry were held up on board, and their fire was needed to try and protect the few who had by that time made it to the shore? In which case they may have used all the sally-ports.

As I said at the beginning – First thoughts – but all interesting stuff and thanks again for sharing

regards

Michael

[oak]

Many thanks Michael,

That is a nice picture of the River Clyde.

"After the initial shock of the hot reception, wouldn't men try and shorten their exposure time to the enemy's fire and thus have preferred to leave the relative safety of the iron hull via the forward port, and not the second or middle one?" One would think so. I don't, however, know whether it was possible to move between the holds of the ship. The fact that exit doors were cut in a few places would, perhaps, appear to suggest that it was not possible to move between holds. Even if it were possible to move between holds, the units at the rear would either have had to wait for units at the front to exit first. Failing this, they would have had to push their way through the troops in front, rather like shoppers at department-store 'sales'

"Would the Munster machine guns have been firing through the same port which their men were leaving by?" That is a very interesting point, Michael. The fact that Dewhurst refers to an officer being killed before his eyes as he 'passed through the exit port' would certainly appear to suggest that Dewhurst was near the exit port. On the other hand, as you said " I doubt that one port had room for four machine guns; possibly two at the most I would have thought." Personally I find it hard to imagine putting Vickers machine guns at the exit doors through which troops will also have to pass. I would have thought that it would have been more logical to put them on the deck of the ship. If, however, this was done, surely they would have been placed there before the ship sailed for Gallipoli and Dewhurst would have mentioned this. [Or maybe he wouldn't have. I really wish he had given far more information about the landing.] "Were the guns set up only after it became clear that the infantry were held up on board, and their fire was needed to try and protect the few who had by that time made it to the shore? In which case they may have used all the sally-ports. Again, Michael, you raise a very interesting point and a very reasonable scenario. But, alas, perhaps we will never know.

Kind regards,

Philip

[michaeldr]

Great to have your views on this, Philip.

To be honest, the internal subdivision of the ship had not occurred to me (though of course it should have )

Many thanks for that

All the best

Michael

[Guest]

On page 94 of The incomparable 29th and the "River Clyde" (1920)

" We had twelve machine-guns on board that memorable day, the one in the bow being managed by the son of the Earl of Leicester. This gun was said to have done brilliant work. A large pile of empty cartridges still lies where the gun was posted, and I carried away a few of these as the only memento I possess of April 25, barring the memory of a hellish day and night."

Mike

[RobL]

Definitely Vickers guns? All photos i've seen of 2nd Hampshires show Maxims

[Krithia]

The RNAS guns on the RC were all Maxim's, but as to the infantry MGs?

During this part of the war the Vickers were steadily replacing the older Maxim, but when this happened in each individual battalion, i do not know. This could well have begun prior to the 29th Div going out to Gallipoli, but I do know other units like the RND and Anzacs all had a Maxim for the early part of the campaign (or so photographic evidence suggests).

Documentary evidence can also be misleading, i.e. the manufacturer of these weapons was "Vickers Sons & Maxim" (VSM).

[oak]

Thanks skipman, RobL and Krithia,

Number of Maxmims: That puts George Davidson (The Incomparable 29th and the River Clyde) and Unwin in saying there were 12, as against Drewry, "The War in the Air" and Wedgwood, who commanded the guns and wrote to Churchill on 25 April 1915, saying there were 11.

I really appreciate the information as to who commanded the gun in the bow, skipman.

My source on the Vickers is Great War Forum founder Chris Baker's website, The Long, Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/whatbatt.htm

Best,

Philip

[Krithia]

I really appreciate the information as to who commanded the gun in the bow, skipman.

Lieutenant Hon. Arthur Coke (son of the Earl of Leicester) commanded the gun on the bow.

He was killed later in May 1915.

[oak]

Thanks Krithia,

I appreciate that.

Best,

Philip

[GregO]

I realise how old this, but does anyone know how much ammunition they had on board SS Clyde?

Cheers

Greg 

[horatio2]

Not specific to the RNAS guns but In calculating the ammunition requirement for deploying to the MEF, the RND HQ Statement [RND HQ Memorandum to First Lord dated 28 February 1915] specified 36 Maxims for RND battalions at 21,500 rounds per gun with a reserve of 20,000 rounds per gun.

[michaeldr]

In his 'With Machine-Guns in Gallipoli,'  Lieutenant-Commander Josiah Wedgwood MP, DSO, neglects to say how much ammunition his eleven guns started the day with, however he does say that "At one o'clock I got 20,000 more rounds from the fleet...."

[GregO]

Thanks for that. Interesting they could even transfer 20,000 rounds across at 1pm.