Basra Memorial

[Terry Denham]

The Basra Memorial in Iraq which bears 40,662 names of Commonwealth troops missing from WW1 has been declared by CWGC as being unfit for the purpose of commemorating those men.

The whole structure will have to be demolished due to its 'beyond repair' condition. CWGC will be replacing it but plans will obviously have to wait until the situation has stabilised in the country. CWGC states "The long term aim is to return to Iraq when the situation allows and restore our commitment there."

In the meantime, a special 'Roll of Honour' is being produced in the form of a memorial book to be kept at CWGC's headquarters in Maidenhead where members of the public may view it if they so wish. This will be the men's temporary commemoration location.

[Nick Cooper]

Having followed the fate of the Memorial in recent years (one Bridlington man is comemorated on it), I have to say that this is sad to hear, but not totally unexpected. One does wonder, though, what can replace such a massive memorial on anything like the same scale, especially in Iraq.

[Kate Wills]

Terry,

Would it be possible for the CWGC to add images of this book to their website?

I know few of us can get to Baghdad, but not everyone can get to Maidenhead; and this would be an easily accessible solution.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Would it be possible for the CWGC to add images of this book to their website?

It can't see that happening; not soon, if ever.

The problem being that some people (I include myself) would complain that if these images can be put online, then there are other more (?!) important items that could/should be on the CWGC website.

I'd love to be proved wrong.

Agree that the Iraq memorial situation is sad. But so too is the Indian memorial, and many others.....

Nasty, bad world.

[Nick Cooper]

Would it be possible for the CWGC to add images of this book to their website?

It can't see that happening; not soon, if ever.

The problem being that some people (I include myself) would complain that if these images can be put online, then there are other more (?!) important items that could/should be on the CWGC website.

I'd love to be proved wrong.

Agree that the Iraq memorial situation is sad. But so too is the Indian memorial, and many others.....

Nasty, bad world.

Comemoration as near to the location of death is, of course, preferable, but maybe in some cases doing to in the UK might the the best lasting option. Brookwood Memorial Mk II, anyone?!

[Terry Denham]

The Book is only a temporary measure and will contain no more than is available on the website. The pages probably will be computer produced and then bound in some presentable fashion. The aim is to get a stonework memorial back into business as soon as possible. Unfortunately, we all know that could be a very long time.

Being realistic, the most important thing is that these men have a proper commemoration somewhere. If Iraq eventually (and we are probably talking several years hence) proves to be a 'no go' then Brookwood would seem the logical place - the Brookwood (Russia) Memorial being a precedent.

[Drummy]

Terry,

Thankyou for this extremely important piece of news, I guess that the fact it is in Iraq makes it seem more distant but in reality it is no different in significance than the Tyne Cot memorial having to be demolished.

I would appreciate any updates on this subject. My immediate queries are when will this demolition take place? Will it be carried out by our Royal Engineers (as there are engineer units in the Basra region)? Are there any plans to retain any part of the memorial for inclusion in any new memorial?

From what I have seen of the memorial it is a substantial memorial worthy of the men it commemorates howoever in todays best value climate etc are there plans, if it is to be rebuilt, that the memorial will be of the same design?

As I have stated in a previous thread, as we become more distant from the wars I hope that the CWGC where possible will start to bring in some of the war dead from isolated graves and cemeteries into large war cemeteries. In regards to the Iraq situation I hope that the decision will be made to reduce the number of sites over there and bring the graves into one or two large cemeteries in which the memorial could be sited also. This surely would reduce administration and maintenance costs and make security of the site(s) slightly better? Lets hope we dont go down the road of what happened in India 60 years ago where many graves were marked off 'unmaintainable'.... 'in perpetuity'?

Neil.

[Terry Denham]

Drummy

You can forget entirely the possibility of any bodies being moved. It will not happen. There is no point wasting time discussing it for all the reasons we have mulled over before.

The worst scenario would be that all cemeteries would be declared 'unmaintainable' and a memorial built elsewhere bearing the names - as happened in India post-WW2.

However, CWGC are determined to return to Iraq to continue their normal work - even if this does not happen for years. We must curb our natural impatience - Remember, CWGC's timescale is 'in perpetuity'.

All your questions are natural ones but nobody has answers to them as yet. We will have to wait for the passage of time and the outcome of events. Realism and patience have to govern in this sort of situation. The previous experiences of Lebanon and Russia are good precedents and bode well.

I will, of course, let you know anything further that I discover.

[iain mchenry]

Terry,

Thanks very much for this infomation. Its a shame that the current memorial cannot be maintained but "C'est la Guerre". Lets hope when times become more peaceful in the region that the replacement memorial will be as fitting as the original. Would it be a direct copy? and do the CWGC hold the blueprints for these?

Drummy,

There are royal Engineers in the area. The units depend on what British Brigade is in theatre at the time. Although I have no evidence to support who will be in charge of the dissassembly of the memorial, it may take place under Iraqi contract (Maybe with RE supervision?) as it is important in these times to get the local infrastructure up and running again.

Best regards

Iain

[Terry Denham]

Guys

I suspect you are thinking short term whereas this may be a long term project - long after the British army has left the area.

It is all speculation from now on as nobody knows what will happen and I believe several years of relative stability in Iraq would have to pass before any rebuilding takes place.

In due course, CWGC will decide to build a new memorial either in Iraq or elsewhere and they are the experts at building memorials. They built two last year and have a third one waiting for another political situation to stabilise - in Sudan.

It is now down to the politicians.

[Drummy]

Terry.

Are you able to help with a further couple of questions re Iraq?

1. How many cemteries and burial grounds in Iraq contain our service personnel?

2. How many graves in total are there recorded by, or maintained on agreement, by the CWGC.

3. Are the CWGC responsible for any foriegn graves and also graves of british personnel who died outside of the war dates?

4. Are there further CWGC memorials sited through Iraq?

and finally I assume that all CWGC sites are now heavily vandalised and was interested to see another thread re 'Habbaniyeh Cemetary' at the site of an old RAF base and now occupied by US forces. Do you know anything of this cemetery and are there any plans to start work on this particular site at all.

Finally to clear up some confusion on my part, at the start of the thread you said that the whole structure will have to be demolished due to its beyond repair condition, in your last post you wrote 'nobody has said the old memorial will be dismantled' which is correct?

Thanks Neil.

[Terry Denham]

Drummy

Firstly, apologies, late night confusion! CWGC are expecting the old memorial to be demolished. I have amended my post accordingly.

To answer your other questions.

There are 19 cemeteries and memorials in CWGC care in Iraq (those with asterisks do not contain any Commonwealth War Graves but have Non-World War Graves which are cared for by CWGC under contract).

Alwiya Indian War Cemetery

Amara (Left Bank) Indian War Cemetery

Amara War Cemetery

Baghdad (North Gate) (Khanaqin) Memorial

Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery

Baghdad Civil Cemetery *

Basra (Makina) Civil Cemetery

Basra (Makina) R.A.F. Cemetery *

Basra (Tanooma Chinese) Memorial

Basra Cremation Memorial

Basra Indian Forces Cemetery

Basra Memorial

Basra War Cemetery

Habbaniya Memorial

Habbaniya War Cemetery

Karbala Isolated Grave

Kut War Cemetery

Ma'asker Al Raschid R.A.F. Cemetery *

Mosul War Cemetery

They contain 22419 Commonwealth War Graves and there are 41099 names on the memorials from both world wars. In addition CWGC care for 689 Foreign National War Graves and 1165 Non-World War Graves.

You can have the detailed figures for each one if you wish.

As has already been said, CWGC will move back when the situation allows. Nobody in their right mind would expect teams to go in with the current situation. We may be looking at ten or twenty years of chaos here (I hope not) which would prevent a return.

They will have tentative plans, I am sure, but peace has to break out first!

[Drummy]

Terry, Thankyou very much for a very detailed reply, I did not realise we were talking of such numbers!! That is a mammoth task as and when the time comes. I know that sites such as Basra memorial, and war cemetery, Kut and Habbaniyeh cemetery have been mentioned over the last 12 month, I take it with the current situation and it being extremely dangerous to venture to many places that the state of many of the other sites are unknown to the CWGC.

Finally Terry if I may ask two further questions purely out of interest what dates to the bulk of the non world graves cover - 1950's - 60's, or pre ww1? you also mentioned the Sudan what was the work the CWGC carried out here?

Once again thankyou for all the information you have provided.

Cheers Neil.

[Terry Denham]

Neil

The Non-World War Graves in CWGC Care in Iraq are nearly all from the 1920s and 1930s - military personnel and their dependents from the inter-war years. However, there is a very small number from the late 1940s and 1950s.

CWGC have three sites in Sudan. The Khartoum War Cemetery with both WW1 and WW2 burials, The Khartoum Memorial (WW2) and the Sudan Defence Force & Sudan Police Memorial (WW2).

This latter memorial has not yet been built and is awaiting permission from the Sudanese government for it to go ahead. It was only a few years ago that these men were added to CWGC's database as it had previously been in doubt whether they qualified or not as Commonwealth casualties. The decision went in their favour.

[Drummy]

Terry,

Many thanks for your prompt reply, very interesting.