P1907 hookies

[jscott]

Hi all

I've been collecting bayonets for around 3 or 4 years now, and have been absolutely astonished to see how much P1907 hooked quillon bayonets have increasd in price in that short period of time. From what I'm seeing now - they are almost always £600-£1000 (and some of the rarer makers, ie Lithgow and Mole many times that much). Some of the old reference books I have show their price as being approximately equivalent (for example) to that of a sawback 98/05 bayonet, and yet now they appear to be routinely selling for 3-4 times that much.

They are clearly not rare, and in fact they do not even appear to be particularly scarce. If money were no object I think I could purchase 20 of them online straight away. And I'm not sure I follow the historical significance either given a hooked quillon removed bayonet was far more likely to have seen service. I would love to add a hookie to my collection (just to tick that box) but unless something dramatic happens (or I get very lucky at an antique shop!) I just dont think it will ever happen.

Any thoughts on why these bayonets are so popular would be much appreciated.

Cheers, J

[shippingsteel]

Jonathan, thought this thread might be a touch easier to read in a larger font so have modified your post below. Hope you don't mind. Cheers, S>S

Hi all

I've been collecting bayonets for around 3 or 4 years now, and have been absolutely astonished to see how much P1907 hooked quillon bayonets have increasd in price in that short period of time. From what I'm seeing now - they are almost always £600-£1000 (and some of the rarer makers, ie Lithgow and Mole many times that much). Some of the old reference books I have show their price as being approximately equivalent (for example) to that of a sawback 98/05 bayonet, and yet now they appear to be routinely selling for 3-4 times that much.

They are clearly not rare, and in fact they do not even appear to be particularly scarce. If money were no object I think I could purchase 20 of them online straight away. And I'm not sure I follow the historical significance either given a hooked quillon removed bayonet was far more likely to have seen service. I would love to add a hookie to my collection (just to tick that box) but unless something dramatic happens (or I get very lucky at an antique shop!) I just dont think it will ever happen.

Any thoughts on why these bayonets are so popular would be much appreciated.

Cheers, J

[jscott]

Thanks S>S, I didn't mean to write in miniature font...

[shippingsteel]

I didn't mean to write in miniature font...

Which reminds me ... another of my pet hates is those miniature bayonets (or replica/keepsakes) You really gotta wonder what use they'd be in the trenches.?

PS. The hookies are expensive because everyone wants one. If you find out why everyone wants one - then you will have your answer. Why do you want one.?

Cheers, S>S

[wainfleet]

I'd like a good hook quillon 07, but I don't want it badly enough to pay the inflated sums they routinely achieve. Ok, they are nice, distinctive early pieces, and they continued in use throughout the war, but that isn't reason enough for prices to rocket as they have.

So why have they gone this high? I can only theorise that - by analogy with trench maps, and Mary tins + their associated bits - the combination of easily-obtainable and evocative has caused them to develop a micromarket of their own. Only really committed collectors will make the considerable effort required to hunt it down WW1 collectables as difficult to find as a Gorblimey, PH helmet, or even a good set of 08 these days. By contrast, hook quillon 07s, perceived as being "superior" to run-of-the-mill 07s, an easy purchase, and which can be considered either as standalone items or part of an equipment, have become sufficiently sought after that prices gradually ran away with themselves before anyone realised what was happening.

It remains to be seen whether the bubble will burst.

[jscott]

I completely agree Wainfleet, I would like a hook quillon 07 to round out my collection, but I find the asking price completely disproportionate to the scarcity/ availability. I collect bayonets as an affordable way of owning a tangible piece of WW1 history and therefore place high value on regimental markings and bayonets that have seen service. A large number of the hook quillon bayonets I see don't fit these criteria - and I would imagine that a large percentage of them were used solely for training purposes etc (otherwise wouldnt the hook have been removed in accordance with official requirements?) I'm sure some of them were used in the first few years of the war before being withdrawn/ captured/ brought back home etc and therefore avoided the chop - but surely these would be in the minority?

However people obviously collect for a variety of reasons and I can definitely see the attraction of the hookies. You are probably spot on regarding the micro market - there must be a little group of people with a lot of money who are forcing the prices up!

S>S, do these miniature bayonets you refer to come with quillons? It may be my only opportunity!

[Niko]

I've found one a couple of years ago (ok, a little pitted.... ) for the giant price of €15.- and I'm talking about the real thing, not a miniature.

Useless to say I was very happy....

[shippingsteel]

S>S, do these miniature bayonets you refer to come with quillons? It may be my only opportunity!

You may be in luck, they sure do, see HERE ... a miniature version of the Belgian M1889, about 5" long and used as a post-war 'souvenir' letter opener.

And regarding the hookies, you are exactly right. So many examples you see are pre-war reservist kit that were out of circulation well prior to the GW.

I only get excited about ones which definitely saw service during the war, and survived intact ... complete with regimental markings and/or provenance.

Bayonets that were captured by the enemy, or sent home in servicemans kit when they were wounded or invalided, sure have the history to interest me.

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Well Niko, if you're looking to double your money I'd be happy to take it off your hands! Nice find - did you get it in Belgium? I think the location alone would indicate that your bayonet was a survivor of the war.

S>S - quite the quillon that little bayonet has! Im sure there are people out there who would pay a small fortune for the right type of "letter opener bayonet" too!

[Niko]

Well Niko, if you're looking to double your money I'd be happy to take it off your hands! Nice find - did you get it in Belgium? I think the location alone would indicate that your bayonet was a survivor of the war.

Well, I bought it at Wavre (south of Brussels) from a guy from....Mons.......Makes me wonder!

[jscott]

Well thats a fabulous find regardless (but nice to think it may have been involved in the early battles of the war). I presume it doesnt have any helpful markings?

[shippingsteel]

HERE is one for you Jonathan.! Should be well within your price range too - a "bargain" for sure ... (just don't scroll down)

Cheers, S>S

[jscott]

Actually that one doesn't look too bad at all from a distance. Its good to check out these repros if only to stay abreast of the copies which may be billed as originals. Not quite good enough to deceive yet, but with some extra "weathering", some authentic looking markings and maybe some original grips.... who knows? At least bayonets are a little harder to copy that badges, medals etc.

[Niko]

Well thats a fabulous find regardless (but nice to think it may have been involved in the early battles of the war). I presume it doesnt have any helpful markings?

I can just make out a broad arrow......

[Khaki]

Question,

Would an Ishapore dated 1910 have started life as a 'hookie' it has no clearance hole. It's yet to arrive so can't give more details yet.

thanks

khaki

[shippingsteel]

It certainly would have if it was actually dated 1910, however they reportedly didn't begin manufacture of these in India until 1913-14, so ....??

I think someone may have got mixed up with the markings in this case, but it will be interesting to see. Perhaps "very rare never before seen".

Cheers, S>S

[Khaki]

Thanks S>S

I am sure that you are right, and what appears to be 1910 is a bad 1916, when did they first start putting in the clearance holes on Ishapore's?. What ever it is I will be satisfied as it is a nice bayonet with regimentals xx'd out, sound scabbard and frog and didn't cost a fortune. I wish I could find a Great War Ishie rifle to go with it, but todate I have only found a VG WW2 model.

,

regards

khaki

[shippingsteel]

The clearance holes were reportedly added to the Indian production P1907's from 1917. Interestingly I happened to handle a 1917 RFI example over the weekend.

It had been refurbed & blued together with some WW2 sharpening so not really in my 'slot' (nor were the 3 hookies I found) But a nice Vickers did follow me home.

Cheers, S>S

[Khaki]

well done, thank you for the information about the clearance hole,

khaki

[4thGordons]

I would suggest almost any full length Ishapore P1907 would be worth picking up. The Indian programme of shortening appears to have been comprehensive (and later of course of manufacturing variants with shorter blades) and the service life of the bayonets such that full length Ishapores appear to me to be scarcer on the general market than many more sought after variants.

Interesting thread this: Regarding the original post on the cost of Hooked quillon bayonets - I am not sure that they have skyrocketed in price out of all proportion to standard quillon-less variants. When I first started buying bayonets in the UK in the 1980s standard P1907s or P13s seemed to be around 10 pounds (say $15 US) now they seem to change hands on eBay for between 5 and 7 times that. IIRC at the time Hooked Quillon 1907s in the UK were around 100 pounds so an equivalent 5-7 fold increase would put them about where they are now... perhaps it would be a bit lower but not massively. I have a reasonably representative sample of P1907s (perhaps 50 or so) but I do not have a hooked quillon -- I couldn't afford the prices in the 80s and I cannot now!

Chris

[Khaki]

Thanks Chris,

You are quite correct, I had forgotten about the Indian Government shortening of bayonets, I am now looking forward to it more than ever.

regards

khaki

[jscott]

I would suggest almost any full length Ishapore P1907 would be worth picking up. The Indian programme of shortening appears to have been comprehensive (and later of course of manufacturing variants with shorter blades) and the service life of the bayonets such that full length Ishapores appear to me to be scarcer on the general market than many more sought after variants.

Interesting thread this: Regarding the original post on the cost of Hooked quillon bayonets - I am not sure that they have skyrocketed in price out of all proportion to standard quillon-less variants. When I first started buying bayonets in the UK in the 1980s standard P1907s or P13s seemed to be around 10 pounds (say $15 US) now they seem to change hands on eBay for between 5 and 7 times that. IIRC at the time Hooked Quillon 1907s in the UK were around 100 pounds so an equivalent 5-7 fold increase would put them about where they are now... perhaps it would be a bit lower but not massively. I have a reasonably representative sample of P1907s (perhaps 50 or so) but I do not have a hooked quillon -- I couldn't afford the prices in the 80s and I cannot now!

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for this - very interesting to hear what the prices were back then. I was going off the prices in the Carter book, which (from memory) had the hookies at about forty pounds. Fifty P1907s?! Thats a very impressive collection. Do you focus on makers/ regiments etc? I agree re the Ishapores as well - Ive only ever seen a few full length Ishapore 1907s for sale.

Thanks, J

[Michael Haselgrove]

S>S

In view of your comment about your likes as far as 1907s are concerned, here's one specially for you. I purchased it from Germany not long ago. Made by Wilkinson and marked 10 '09, the pommel is marked 4 R I 426 and the scabbard 675. Given the poor condition I didn't pay a massive amount!

In volume 111 of German Bayonets at page 258 Anthony Carter gives details of a similar bayonet (Wilkinson, made 3 '09 and marked 4.R.I.321) captured by the Germans and taken into their service, being marked with an Imperial eagle stamped on the end of the pommel. The 4th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles was the reserve battalion based in Dublin but Anthony Carter says that although the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Irish Rifles fought on the Western Front in 1914 it is perfectly possible that one or more of the 4th Battalion bayonets were carried by the 2nd Battalion without restamping the pommel.

Anyway, the rust pitting on the pommel is too bad to see if it is marked with the Imperial eagle but, if not, at least it may have been taken back to Germany as a souvenir.

One small point I would like to ask about. If you look just above the bend test marking there is a small circular indentation. There is a similar mark just behind the muzzle ring. The marks are too precise to be accidental damage and I wonder whether they are to test the steel or something of that sort?

Regards,

Michael H.

[shippingsteel]

I have a reasonably representative sample of P1907s (perhaps 50 or so) but I do not have a hooked quillon -- I couldn't afford the prices in the 80s and I cannot now!

Of course you can afford a hooked quillon in your collection Chris - look it's simply a case of economics ... relinquish ownership of say 10 average P1907s and trade up.!

Or there is the other more unpalatable alternative (which I mention with some trepidation) ... let go a couple of less than perfect old SMLE's (heaven forbid I know, but hey)

So it's just a matter of choice and if you are happy with what you collect. For me the hookies are well overrated and when I buy one its like whatever, its just another bayonet.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

In view of your comment about your likes as far as 1907s are concerned, here's one specially for you. I purchased it from Germany not long ago. Made by Wilkinson and marked 10 '09, the pommel is marked 4 R I 426 and the scabbard 675. Given the poor condition I didn't pay a massive amount!

One small point I would like to ask about. If you look just above the bend test marking there is a small circular indentation. There is a similar mark just behind the muzzle ring. The marks are too precise to be accidental damage and I wonder whether they are to test the steel or something of that sort?

It's a nice bayonet Michael, thanks for posting the photos. I also have a Wilkinson hookie that came out of Germany, it appears that quite a few survived as 'bringback' souvenirs.

Yours may have spent some time lying in place on the battlefield with corrosion playing its part, but still a very interesting bayonet, with the added history of those regimental marks.

I am not sure about those indentations, but have a nagging feeling I have seen something similar before but just can't recall. They certainly have to be some kind of armourer mark.

Possibly added during the manufacturing or acceptance process to signify it had been checked at a certain stage. Remember Wilkinson was a private contractor so anything goes.

Cheers, S>S