Territorial Force Artillery small arms?

[RobL]

I was wondering if anyone knew either for definite, or which would be most likely, the type of rifle used by the Highland Mountain Brigade (Royal Garrison Artillery, Territorial Force), consisting of the Argyll, Ross & Cromarty, and Bute Batteries, at least during 1914-15. As it seems the Territorials often had either the Long Lee Enfield or the slightly different but nearly identical Charger Loading Lee Enfield (with charger 'bridge' and protective 'ears' around the foresight), would it be fair to assume that the small arms used by the Territorial Force artillery units would most likely have these, being rather far down the pecking order for SMLE's?

[TonyE]

I agree that LEs or CLLEs are most likelly, as the LE carbine had been long withdrawn by then, but never say never!

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Is it possible that as a "mounted" units (or at least with horses/limbers with rifle scabbards) it might have been that the TF Artillery were actually ahead of the infantry battalions in the assigning of ShtLEs? So while I have no evidence I wonder if the assumption of their lower level on the pecking order is accurate.

I have some photos from 1914 of a couple of highland batteries but I am away from them at the moment so cannot check what (if anything) they show. My [dim] recollection is that they show ShtLEs but I won't be able to check for a week or so.

Like Tony I would put MLEs or CLLEs above LECs - which aside from RIC Carbines I have not seen any photographic evidence of from GW dated pics - but......

Chris (breaking his own holiday prohibition on browsing the forum!)

[RobL]

Thanks chaps - another reason to get a CLLE! The Argyll battery (and Ross and Bute) were mountain gunners, do dismounted

[CSMMo]

Rob - Of the MANY photos I have of the 4th HMB, not one has a personal firearm in evidence except the one that is attached and I believe that one to be pre-war (AMB) and a difficult view of it to determine what it is. For all I know it was brought from home!

Mike Morrison

[TonyE]

Definitely an MLE or CLLE and not a SMLE.

REgards

TonyE

[RobL]

Many thanks Mike - does anyone know what bandoliers they have? Don't look quite like 03,a, not with 6 pouches instead of 5...

[Dave1418]

Hi Rob, its not 03 or 1897 pattern mounted infantry bandolier either. I have seen these in photos and at auction and I believe they are Boar war period, hopefully someone can let us know the correct pattern. Regards. Dave

[4thGordons]

Definitely an MLE or CLLE and not a SMLE.

REgards

TonyE

Tony,

I know it would be foreshortened but that looks very very short (look at the slack in the sling) for either a MLE or CLLE

It is unclear but I can't really make out a bayonet mount either (to be faire that could also be the Hazi Palinka!)

Is it possible that it might be a Martini-Enfield Carbine?

Chris

[TonyE]

Ah, palinka, I remember it well (but hazily)

You could be right, but I thought I could see a bayonet mount.

Cheers

TonyE

[303man]

Martini Enfield Artillery Carbine had a Bayonet bar and Sling swivel, whereas the Martini Enfield Cavalry carbines had no bayonet Bar or swivels so it would fit in a leather bucket.

[nigelfe]

Artillery were not issued with individual weapons until 1941/2. Before that they were 'pool' items. IIRC a gun had 4 rifles.

[kevinrowlinson]

RobL,

If you are still interested the following is what the Cornwall RGA TF used.

Arms. Originally armed with the "Rifle, Charger Loading, Magazine, Lee Enfield. Mark, 1., and the Sword-Bayonet, Pattern '88.

on 1.2.1918, these were replaced by the Enfield Pattern 1914, .303 inch Magazine Rifle; and the corresponding sword -bayonet.

No: 1/8 Company, Cornwall RGA was for a period armed with the Portuguese Rifle, (between Dec. 15, and April, 17.)

The authority for the above alterations was the Chief Officer Ordnance of the Command.

Kevin

[4thGordons]

Kevin

That information is interesting to me for a couple of reasons.Could you clarify that the unit to which you were referring were in F&F at the time rather than on home service

if so, the Pattern 14 notation is interesting because it would appear to provide evidence of their use in France which is quite hard to find otherwise.

secondly the reference to the "Portuguese Rifle" is intriguing because I assume it refers to the M1904 Vergueiro-Mauser and I was unaware of their use by the British in the Great War. My assumption would be that they may have armed the Portuguese contingent on the Western Front but been exchanged for SMLEs for supply purposes. Perhaps TonyE has some information on that?

Chris

[TonyE]

Very interesting, both from the point of view of the P.'14 and also the Portuguese rifles.

I have not come across any refference to these being used by the British before. i believe the South Africans purchased a number but unsure of the date.

Any further information gratefully received!

Regards

TonyE

[kevinrowlinson]

Quote, "Could you clarify that the unit to which you were referring were in F&F at the time rather than on home service."

The weapons issued above would have been for home units as far as I can gather although that is not made clear. Certainly the 1/8 Coy were home based. Those weapons given for "in the field", I would say, would have been the same as the regular RGA, certainly later in the war after 1915/16. Not something I have researched but thought it may be of interest regarding one particular RGA TF Assoc.

Kevin

[4thGordons]

Quote, "Could you clarify that the unit to which you were referring were in F&F at the time rather than on home service."

The weapons issued above would have been for home units as far as I can gather although that is not made clear. Certainly the 1/8 Coy were home based. Those weapons given for "in the field", I would say, would have been the same as the regular RGA, certainly later in the war after 1915/16. Not something I have researched but thought it may be of interest regarding one particular RGA TF Assoc.

Kevin

Thank you.

The P'14 information would be consistent with the general information that most Pattern 14s did not see action in the Great War

Still interested in the "Portuguese Rifle" and would be fascinated to see any photographs of British units armed with these even in UK.

Do you know if any photos of the 1/8 Coy between Dec '15 and Ap '17 exist?

Chris

[kevinrowlinson]

Quote, "Do you know if any photos of the 1/8 Coy between Dec '15 and Ap '17 exist?"

Sorry but I do not. As I said it is not something I have researched but will from now on keep an eye out.

Kevin

[AlanD]

With regard to Model 1904 Portugese rifles used by British troops. I have a copy of a two page list of arms and accesories inspected in the Great War, dated 6.6.18. It was in MUN5/190 at Kew.

The two patterns of Arisaka rifle are listed along with the carbine with the List of Changes number. Under this is listed, "Rifle Model 1904 Portugese .256" List of Changes number is listed as "none". I had always assumed these must have been the rifles that ended up in use by Union of South African forces in German South West Africa. However, these were supplied by Porutugal and I wonder if these went through Enfield for inspection but I have never seen one with an Enfield inspection mark. This in itself does not mean much as the Arisaka's were not marked with an inspection mark either.

It may be that the 20,000 Model 1904 rifles supplied by Portugal were quite seperate to those that ended up in British use, all speculative I am afraid.

Excepting Pattern 1914 rifles no other secondary issue rifles are shown on the list.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181569

Forgot to add that both "Ross Mark 111 (Canadian Pattern) with sword bayonet and scabbard" and "Ross Mark 111B (British Pattern) with sword bayonet and scabbard", were on the list as well.

Regards

AlanD

Sydney

[4thGordons]

Thanks very much Alan, that's very interesting and useful.

As mentioned in post #14 I know nothing at all about the Portuguese contingent on the Western Front but have seen several photos showing them armed with SMLEs. I assume that they would have arrived in France with some weapons and wondered if they exchanged them, providing another possible source of the rifle.

Chris

[TonyE]

You beat me to it, Chris. i was thinking exactly the same thing, that these weapons were part of an exchange for the SMLEs given to the Portuguese contingent in France.

Thanks Alan for the NA reference. Now you have given me another thing to chase down!

Regards

TonyE

[ororkep]

To all interested in this thread,

RGA Records Dover requested from all Home Garrisons information from the Historical Records they kept. Many of these appear not to have survived. This took the form of a ‘digest’, basically a standard 10 part questionnaire for which the responses differed greatly depending on the interpretation of the individual Company Commanding Officers.

In answer to the question: List alterations in the clothing, arms, accoutrements, colours or horse furniture, with date and authority for same.

The Major of 30 Coy (Weymouth) replied: On 24/7/15 .303 Rifles returned & on 24/7/15 144 Portuguese Mauser Rifles were issued.

This was obviously not a satisfactory response as Dover responded as per the attached below. (CD by the way is Coastal Defence)

Unfortunately there is no further surviving correspondence.

Rgds

Paul

[4thGordons]

Hmmmmm

When did the Portuguese contingent reach the Western Front? my recollection was early 1917 but now I will need to check.

If so and the exchange above (for which many thanks!) is 1915/16 that would appear to scupper the "exchanged for SMLEs" idea.

Chris

Edit: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/portuguese-army-sees-first-action-in-flanders

Says Feb 1917 for arrival of Portuguese contingent.

[AlanD]

If Number 30 Company recieved 144 Portuguese rifles how many Coastal Defence companys are there that may have recived some as well? i.e. 144 X 30 =4,320.

Just wondering if this may give a rough estimate to the number of Model 1904's involved???

These rifles turn up quite frequently in Aussie and NZ gun shows and auctions, although I have never seen a British marked example.

Regards

AlanD

Sydney

[roger cleverly]

Years ago when BSA sold off the contents of their pattern room I purchased a Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro '04 converted into a .303 calibre short rifle, SMLE nose cap with the underside cut away to allow access to the cleaning rod. I assumed that this was a trial pattern with a view to converting '04 stocks for issue to Portuguese troops serving alongside us on the Western Front. Sorry, no photographs, I left them with the Portuguese Army Museum in Lisbon a few years back. RC