Interpretation of info on Medal Roll

[MarkyP]

I'm trying to discover more information on Sidney Sargent who served in the Royal Engineers. Unfortunately his service record appear to in those that haven't survived and he doesn't appear to have any pension records. So all I have are his index card and his medal roll. My first question is that I've read that it is possible for people to have more than one index card and as I've found 2 Sidney Sargents I was wondering what the likelihood is of them being one in the same man? Would they still have the same regimental number or not?. Also would it possible for someone to interpret his medal roll for me? It has his rank as Sapper, yet on the index card it says Pioneer. And what does the T.B. stand for? Plus one more, the roll is stamped at Chatham, does this give and indication to where he might of served, it does have I.W.D stamped on top of the record so I'm guessing it was the Inland and Waterways Division. Any help greatly appreciated, cheers, Mark.

[johndavidswarbrick]

It is possible for a man to have more than one Medal Index card, but in my experience the medal roll entry would usually have all of a man's numbers, assuming that he had different numbers allocated to him when transferring from one regiment to another or when all the men were re-numbered in 1916. If you have a different number on one of the medal cards then I suspect that you are looking at two different individuals as I believe that a man should only appear on one medal roll no matter how many different units he might have served in. Your man above seems to have been entered as a sapper in the column for rank and also as a pioneer in the column for previous history; I would say that sapper would have been the rank he finished on and the rank on his medals. I'm not sure about "TB" - but I suspect that it stands for Territorial Battalion, but no doubt someone with greater knowledge will post later.

Dave Swarbrick

[David Porter]

"TB" stands for Transportation Branch. There is a Pension Record surviving for W.R. 336151 Pnr Patrick Deacy - it may give a better idea of Sidney's service with the RE. Looks like an April 1918 enlistment. "IWD" is Inland Waterways and Docks.

[KevinBattle]

We might be able to help more if you told us what you already have and why you feel that 336146 is "your" man, when there are other Sidney Sargents in the Royal Engineers.

Sidney Sargent, Royal Engineers, Royal Engineers, (T)2111,496414

Sidney Sargent, Royal Engineers, WR/336146

Sidney H Sargent, Royal Engineers, 189922, Royal Engineers,WR/258316

Sidney J Sargent, Royal Engineers, 49447

336146 did not serve Overseas until after 1915. No casualties in the 3361** series so possibly late 1918.

He survived the War but obviously it looks as if his Service Records didn't survive Round Two.

[MarkyP]

Thanks for the responses, great info already. Definitely Sidney Sargent WR/336146, we have the medals, I just wondered if his number might have changed at some point, but I'm guessing if it had it would have been shown on the medal roll.

[KevinBattle]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I assume he was a family member, does anyone remember any anecdotes or other info from his Service days?

Was he physically affected, wounds, injuries or chronic ill health?

Just makes life easier if we have what info is available up front, rather than having to start from scratch.

Have you looked at the Service Record as per David's Post #3?

Patrick seems to have enlisted only in April 1918 although he was 35 years old.

When and where was your Sidney born? What was his civilian occupation?

If late 1890's then he may have been too young to have a previous non 6 digit number for example.

By April 1918 the Army must really have been scouring all remaining possible manpower.

He may not have been fully A1 fit for the front line, but still physically capable of labouring work as a Pioneer, then graduated as he developed skills.

On the face of it, it may have been that he had only a few months service at the last stages of the War.

You may know different!

[MarkyP]

I'm doing it for a friend of a friend, and he's in his eighties now, is not computer literate and it's his father (Sidney) we are trying to find out about. Sidney was born in 1883 and lived into his eighties. He was born in Halstead, Essex but at the outbreak of the war was living in Willesden, London and worked as a print compositor and went on to work for the Evening News and Daily Mail. I will have a look at Patrick's service record, it appears they were the same age. His first wife died in 1916 and I've just realised on her DC it has him as a Printer Compositor, so I'm guessing he hadn't joined by then. Thanks for your help so far.

[MarkyP]

Just read Patrick Deacy's pension record, really interesting.

Other than his age there doesn't appear to much similarity, he certainly wouldn't have enrolled in Perth. Patrick also had a disability which I'm sure that Sidney didn't. Sidney also got the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, is that significant?

[KevinBattle]

All that tells us is that Sidney was not Overseas before 1916, otherwise he would also have had the 1915 Star.

With having such close numbers, it's likely that both Sidney and Patrick were signing up at about the same time, April 1918.

Presumably he was a married man, so not in the rush to serve, and printing may have had something of a reserved occupation about it.

Quite what the use of a middle aged printing compositor would be as a pioneer labourer in an Inland waterways unit is down to Army logic, it beats mine!

It would mean that he would likely have served on the rivers, canals or ports in France, but that's just surmise on my part.

He was good enough to get promoted to Sapper, though, if that's some comfort!

Is there any reference to a RE unit on the Medal Roll? Anything inside the stamp that might give a clue?

[MarkyP]

He lost his first wife in 1916 and had 2 young children. He remarried in 1919 and there is a photo of him in uniform. The only mention of place is Chatham which you can see on the stamp in the photo, but is that where all the medal rolls were done? I don't have a photo of the whole page, I can only assume there wasn't anything of interest on the rest of it. Thanks for your help Kevin, most appreciated.

[clive_hughes]

Chatham was the main RE Depot and where the RE Record Office was situated. All the stamp means is that the roll page was validated on the date in the stamp, by that office.

For his actual unit, it might be worth checking the Absent Voters List 1918 for his home area, if you have his address. This was compiled round about June 1918 and reflects his unit as of then, so IF enlisted April maybe at that stage he was still in training, but might equally have gone overseas. The Rolls are often held at the relevant County Records Office.

Clive

[MarkyP]

Thanks Clive, will give it a go.